Lisa Shea Forums Parakeets General Parakeet Chat Discussion about Handling Newbies and Trolls

You are EXACTLY right XPR, I couldn't agree more. Which is why when I read the thread in question-albatross/keet breeding-I KNEW it was just bait being thrown out there by a TROLL and I didn't respond at all.
BUT, I DO NOT think that trolls should be allowed to stick around just because they might be a kid. I don't care how old or confused they are.. a troll is a troll and they shouldn't be allowed. MOST especially with the type of repulsive vulgarity as THAT particular thread was. It's uncalled for, and IMO the thread should not have just been closed it should have been REMOVED.
We are not here to play therapist for wayward teens. We're here to help birds and to hopefully help their parents become better parents.

One thing that I think every member needs to realise, accept and respect is the fact that this is Lisa's own forum. We are given the privilege of using it ~ and it is a great forum most of the time, so being allowed to be a member is, indeed, a great privilege. We are given this privilege at Lisa's personal expense.

Under these circumstances, it is Lisa's prerogative to decide on the rules and on how those rules should be administered. I have no doubt that Lisa does not expect everyone to agree with her at all times ~ but she opens threads like this so that she can explain her reasoning, give members a chance to comment, and harvest feedback.

Dear KKSuns -

I certainly appreciate your point of view on this, and that every person speaks with a different style. That is true! Even when you watch TV shows, to use an example we might all have access to, you can see that the way people talk to each other in a family on say Psych is very different than the way people talk to each other say in a family on Detroit 1-8-7. Each family feels their way of talking is normal, after all, it is the way they talk! They feel their way is the most effective way.

We are a community here and since our founding our "family way of talking" has been to be compassionate, supportive, and gentle. Over the past year this has altered drastically so that the standard way of talking is to shout and to use derogatory words.

I tried to begin this thread in an abstract way so that we could talk about it generically without drawing us into "who was causing this change" and make it personal. However, Illusive Fantasy immediately posted a long shouting dialogue which very clearly illustrated exactly what all the complaints were about - so as she has (and she says herself) already "outed herself". As she explains our forum members are quite intelligent and realize now what the issue is. Therefore we might as well put it on the table and make it clear.

This discussion is NOT about that troll. I was trying to use that as an example to help make sure we didn't turn this into a personal discussion, because that would have been a better way to address it. However with Illusive Fantasy having foiled that attempt, we can be more clear. This discussion is about the change in the forum which has occurred since Illusive Fantasy began her hostile posts about a year ago. We have warned her about her posts numerous times now, mostly privately. She has been hostile in her responses to those warnings, and she has continued to be hostile to our community. We have been tolerant of her continually violating our member rules because we know she means well and that she is trying her best to help parakeets.

However, over the past three months she is causing parakeets to die. Parakeet owners are now afraid to post in the forums because of her. They are coming to me personally even though I have giant warnings on my contact page that my email backlog is huge and I cannot get to messages in time. I plead with people to post in the forums, and they plead back that they do NOT want to talk to Illusive and they want me to help them instead. This delay in time is causing very serious consequences.

I cannot emphasize enough that Illusive Fantasy's style has been continually commented about from when she began, that the management team has continually tried to help steer her towards a more community based style, and that she has violently refused to follow our rules.

Parakeets are now dying because of her refusal to follow our rules. My attempt to help guide her gently in a global, "our community needs to be more friendly" way was not only ignored by her but actively fought by her. She wants to be able to speak in a hostile manner, and she has stated she refuses to participate in this thread to learn how to follow our stated community rules.

Because this issue has escalated from just "continually annoying members" to a state of "actively killing off parakeets" I have no choice but to mandate that Illusive follows the rules like every other member - something that I should have done from the very beginning. Illusive should never have been granted a special condition where she - and she alone - gets to break the rules because she is helpful.

I hope this makes the situation much more clear. Yes, hostile and shouting posts are a way of speaking in some locations. There are many forums out there which this is normal in, and that is great! However, These LisaShea Parakeet forums are not that location, never have been, and never should have temporarily become that way.

Lisa

The thread may well have been meant to stir things up ~ but it is equally possible that the person was on a quest for knowledge.

I agree that the reference to sailors was potentially very insulting to members of that group ~ and I said as much on the thread.

However, I have seen documentaries, where it indicates that some men, deprived of women for a certain length of time, will show homosexual behaviour. Why, I don't know. I am guessing that these are bi-sexual men who are attracted to women, if women are available, but to men, if women are not available.

I am not saying whether I think that this question was asked by a 'troll' or not, but I will say that it is a reasonable question to ask ~ whether animals ever show similar behaviour.

Similarly, while a 'troll' may facetiously ask about forcing keets to mate with albatrosses, the question as to whether parakeets could mate with an albatross is a valid one. Force should not be used, of course ~ and I indicated this in the thread ~ but a person who is ignorant about the ways of cross-breeding may wonder if this is the way that it is done.

So, how do we differentiate between a 'troll' and a serious person requesting information?

We watch, read, check, keep an eye on things.
The admin team should be trusted to do this, in my opinion, and allowed to get on with it, without criticism, while members take the advice given not to feed any potential trolls and not to insult any potentially inquisitive new members.

Given that, once checked out, a questionable member may indeed be banned ~ and this does happen ~ and that this is a separate issue, I wish to ask a question:

What, exactly is so disgusting, repulsive and vulgar about asking if little birds can mate with big birds, or if birds may exhibit homosexual behaviour?

Poodles cross with labradors, so why not keets with albatrosses?

What is, ultimately, the problem ~ not with the person, as that is a separate matter ~ but with the actual questions?
Can we just clarify that issue, at least?

Lisa,
I can't believe what you stated above about illusive Fantasy!! THAT is just so SO wrong. SHE is NOT and HAS not caused ANY parakeets to DIE. To accuse her of such a thing is just plain heartless. In fact I think it verges on DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER!!
"Parakeets are now dying because of her refusal to follow the rules"
That is just so COLD and again WRONG. How dare you make such outrageous accusations!
To say that parakeet owners are afraid to post in the forum because of her is just plain BULL. If they don't want to talk to her personally they don't HAVE to!!!
YOU Lisa have not been around often enough to know just how many keets she has SAVED. She's helped with MANY medical problems and SAVED lives. She's also helped with behavioral issues and training and figuring out just why a certain keet is afraid to come out of their cage. She's helped sooo many more than YOU will ever be able to help because SHE actually KNOWS a thing or two about keets, and is not afraid to give out helpful advice.
To say she has caused the death of even ONE bird is an outrage. Along with sharing her knowledge and giving advice she pretty much ALWAYS tells the owner to seek an Avian vet. IF in fact any owner is too afraid of "getting yelled at" to seek help for their bird, then that owner needs to get a backbone for crying out loud and put their BIRD FIRST..or go to a dang VET.

We do not live in a fantasy world Lisa..everything is not always peaches and cream and nicey nice. It is NOT a perfect world out their and as much as you might like it to be this is not going to be a perfect forum either. And if you keep chasing all the knowledgeable and passionate members away because you want it to be all sweet and sugar coated YOU will be the cause of many keets dying ..NOT the ones giving concrete advice no matter HOW it is given.

One more thing?? If this thread is not about TROLLS and NEWBIES why did you call it that??? Another lie?? If you had something to say, why not just come out and say it. It started out as being about trolls and newbies and how to deal with them...then suddenly you turn it in to phantom emails you've been receiving. What the????

Ya know, you DO have a point..YOUR forum YOUR rules. And no matter how far fetched those rules may be..you are right..we should have to abide by them. Gawd forbid we break them or we might be accused of murder!

I do implore all of you other members that have received spot on advice from illusive to come forward and say so. I KNOW there are a lot of you out there..and I know that some of you might have even been a little put out by the way illusive may have come on strongly, but in the end you were thanking her for being such a big help and giving spot on advice and solutions. Funny I remember someone saying it was BECAUSE of the way she speaks so strongly that they heeded her advice and it SAVED her bird!!!!

Any newbies... or oldies out there who do need factual advice concerning health or well being of your bird(s) feel free to PM me and I can give you Illusive's email address. I'm sure she would be willing to do all she can. She has ALWAYS put the BIRD'S well being first and foremost. THAT, according to Lisa is a major fault. What a pity
That is unless I'm being booted out too for speaking my mind???

I think it's a crying shame that she is being treated this way.
You are a cold cold woman deep down Lisa. So much for lil miss compassionate. When someone does not abide by your rules you are HEARTLESS. And I quote- Because this issue has escalated from just "continually annoying members" to a state of "actively killing off parakeets"
Does it make you feel good to HURT someone so damn bad with a statement like that Lisa?????? A FALSE statement at that!!!
I think YOU owe HER an apology in a MAJOR way.

Dear KKsuns -

It has been very clear that you and Illusive Fantasy are very good friends, and it is no surprise that you would feel defensive and defend her. I would expect no less.

However, it does not change the simple facts of this situation.

1) We have been asking Illusive Fantasy from the very beginning to change her style of writing. This style upsets many visitors. It has now been a year of us patiently asking her to change.

2) Illusive Fantasy has been hostile in her refusal to follow our rules.

3) Illusive Fantasy has been directly asked by me - in a PM - to post in this thread to agree to follow our rules.

4) Illusive Fantasy has so far refused to do so.

We cannot have members who actively refuse to follow our rules. This is not something that you can "lobby for us to change".

I hope that makes the situation more clear. I understand completely if you feel you should not have to follow our community rules because you are above them. Unfortunately that is not how any forum works.

I add that you, too, are required by your membership agreement to follow our community rules. For you to say that shouting is necessary and that "that owner needs to get a backbone for crying out loud" indicates very clearly that you, yourself, do not agree with our rules and do not intend to follow them either.

I therefore make the same statement to you. I need you to confirm to me - here in this thread - that you intend to follow our forum's rules going forward. If your intention is to try to prove why you and Illusive Fantasy should be exempt from our forum wide rules, and that you are "special members" who are above the rules, then I am sorry but there are no special member classes here. We are all together in our compassionate community.

If your aim is to get me to change the rules I believe strongly in and have guided this forum since 2004, then that is also not going to happen.

If it wasn't for illusive's help with My storm's cage biting and out right telling me she needs more out of cage time all my birds would still be cage bound.

Also when Storm started to act oddly she was the first to help and give me advice i have been a member 05/07/10 and this is by far the most i have seen you on

no one is above the rules yet you yourself resorted to saying hurtful things and saying she has caused a keet to die. All ILLUSIVE has EVER done is help if people can't take the reality of what is going to happen to their Keet and need it sugar coated then they SHOULDN'T OWN ONE

DON'T bash someone that is a Kind person who tells it like it is. ILLUSIVE thank you for All your help I stand by you

kksuns, why for is it that you randomly capitalize words?

Hello, reading through this post, and many other threads so as to learn the basis behind what everyone is arguing about I have come to the conclusion that everyone (That is to say, almost everyone) involved is in the wrong. I will explain, and if anyone feels the need to reply or be offended, then I apologize.

There are clearly two sides in this disagreement, and I will mainly be discussing these groups as whole entities as opposed to individuals. These groups are: Lisa Shea and her supporters, and Illusive Fantasy and her supporters. Both of these groups are wrong.

Illusive Fantasy's group seems to be a helpful bunch, posting information that helps people in learning about their animals, and helping them with problems that they may have. That being said, they also do tend to use harsh (What may be percieved as harsh by others that is, it is obviously not the intention) language, and capital letters (Which some may see as a scream or yell). Now, this, as far as I have seen was never against any written rule or regulation (Perhaps the rule against bullying, but it seems that those who were the "Victim" of these attacks took no offense at all, thus breaking no rule). Now, as owner of this forum, Lisa has a right to change rules/regulations at will, and if she says that talking with capital letters, or using harsh language is against the rules than All posters should follow these guidelines despite what their personal beliefs may be. So these users should respect that and stop using capital letters in such a manner, and not be so harsh, despite the reasons for doing so.

On the flip side of the coin is Lisa Shea and her supporters. They seem to be a very friendly (Mostly) group, who may or may not have the same amount of knowledge on the situations as the opposing group. They are very rule oriented (On the surface). Any poster who breaks the written rules, should be dealt with, be that a warning or a harsher punishment such as a ban. Despite this fact, I have seen many people attempting to get a user who has not broken any written rule banned or deleted (Such as this troll, as, for some reason, trolling is not against the written rules). Now as I am sure all will agree, every poster should be treated equally and no user is "Special" Despite what their status may be. That being said, I ask why users such as Illusive Fanatasy and KKsuns are being singled out to be "Banned" for breaking one rule (The newly added rule about capital letters and yelling), while other users (Namely Lisa Shea) is allowed to break the rules (Namely the cyber-bullying rule) and get away with it simply because of status. This is unfair and unjust and should be changed.

All users should be treated with equal rights, and as such I believe the best course of action is to create two groups of moderators, that is, 2 groups consisting of members of one group (Lisa Shea/friends) and one of the others (Illusive Fantasy/friends) both groups should contain members who understand the rules, and have knowledge of how this community works, so that they can together agree upon what is breaking rules and what should be done (Such as this recent "Albatross Troll") I hope my ideas are at least considered as a way to keep this forum on the right path, as it was meant to be: namely, a place for people to post about their beloved animals, and ask for advice on situations they are not very informed of. Every member of this community (And the world itself) should be treated equally, and with respect. The rules and guidelines should apply to all. I hope everyone will agree, and if you wish to respond to this post with a counter, or perhaps even more helpful ideas, please feel free.

Warrior of Justice, UnnamedJustice.

Dear Yoshi -

I appreciate your desire to be a productive member of our forum!

I have always said that we appreciated Illusive Fantasy's help. That is the reason we've allowed her to skirt the rules for a full year, because we hoped we could help her to begin following them.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that Illusive Fantasy has provided helpful advice.

That is a separate concept from the idea that a member of this community must follow this community's rules.

As I mentioned before, testimonials about Illusive Fantasy's benefits will not change that she has to follow the rules.

It is fine if we have this thread become a praise thread for Illusive Fantasy and all her fine work. I agree wholeheartedly that she has good intentions.

It will not change that she needs to follow this community's stated rules.

I do not agree that all parakeet owners must be able to accept being yelled at and belittled as part of their contract to own a parakeet. I am sure there are other forums where yelling and belittling pet owners is normal and typical, and that is fine! This forum here is very explicitly set up to be a compassionate, caring, attentive forum for pet owners who need that loving care.