Lisa Shea Forums General Discussion Religious Research Unacceptible Compassion

Nana, are you a Mormon. I find the Mormon religious teachings very interesting and quite compelling. I was a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints for quite some time. I have read the Book of Mormon. I have not read "The Book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ." Is this the same book or something different? Who is the author?

I have a copy of the Book of Mormon.
My late Dad was baptised into the church when he was a baby.

PDM, have not read it. =) Will add it to the long list if I can ever remember! I'm telling you, I been reading like... a worm?.. bookwork?... I dunno... lately. It's unhealthy. Haha. But that does sound interesting!

Nana, have not read it yet. I have not studied specific Christian sects yet in my course work. I know bits and pieces, that's all. The supposed origin of the book turns me off to ever reading it though. Have too much else to devote my time too. Unless you can convince me to read it!

Carl, absolutely. =P But I was talking about God but Christianity and it's message. Well, the professor was at least. The assumption is that you can't get into heaven without Jesus. Taking that a a granted fact for a moment, can you find Jesus without the Bible or a vision?

I think the last question is a very good question, and it's one that I'm currently (or maybe even perennially) asking of God.

My "educated" guess (educated by "personal" experience) is that "finding Jesus" is too narrowing a choice.

Seems unlikely, doesn't it?

And yet people do find God - at least what they take to be God. If others do not believe that, this is hardly surprising.

What is surprising, but as time goes by for me (less so), is that there are so many different types of life seemingly inspired by one's perception of God.

If there is only one God, why does not everyone experience the God, and why do different people see God different?

It DOES seem unlikely, that God would operate in this fashion.

And yet, maybe how we act is truly our own responsibility, and reaching for some kind of relationship with God is not as regimented as people think, and more for the next life(lives?) than for this one.

I believe there is a big difference between our showing compassion and compassion being extended to an unbeliever to allow him to enter heaven.

It is my understanding that it works as follows:

It goes without saying that god is the epitomy and embodiment of compassion but he sets the rules.

We are to behave as god but do not have the power to ultimately extend that behavior to changing the requirements for heavenly admittance.

If gaining redemtion is based on belief and acceptance of Jesus and all that entails then that is achieved by believers haveing compassion for unbelievers to the extent that they spread the word to others.

You don't mention if the instructor is putting forth the concepts your speaking about or if it is your interpretation of the writings.

If he is only clarifying what the bible is purporting to convey then true interpretation is best achieved by discussion.

In my opinion, any religious, Bible based theological study should surely include the history and origin of the translations of the Bible and original transcripts written in Hebrew. This should also include excluded books and teachings not included in the final version.

I am aware that you are athiest, you might find the statement I will share with you amusing. I am not sure who said it.

"It is said, that if religion did not exist mankind would have invented it".

I once listened to a very famous Anthropologist who put forth the common belief that "mankind" does just that. He shared the fact that even the most remote races on the face of the earth felt the need to have rituals and ceremony. It seems it is almost a human requirement just like "dreaming".

Condradictions abound such as:

"Suffer not the little children to come unto me,for of such is the kingdom of God."

(I am pulling from memory, so please forgive a misquote)

I ask you, if one were to be a believer, would not the most ignorant, remote, uneducated, uninformed humans on the face of the earth be as "childlike" as possible. A blank slate as it were. If they were taught any other belief than Jesus, would that change their basic innocence?

By the way, I am agnostic, just to clarify.

Hi there everyone,
I happened to wander off from parakeets into this topic...
I am actually a Christian and I believe in the Bible. I hope you won't mind my long message here... I'll just state how I see this.
Niki, you had a lil link there to your blog, and you mentioned the story in Judges 19 about the concubine who was abused and killed.
You also mentioned that some wonder why this is even written in a sacred book.

Well, first of all, the Old Testament is the history of Israel. That story is very important because if you read on, a war began because of this committed crime. A few no good criminals from the tribe of Benjamin decided to abuse and rape this woman, and when the husband found out, as I understand, she was already dead. That is how I understood it anyway, and most others claim this to be so. The husband cut her up and sent her pieces to the different tribes of Israel. First of all, in today's society, this does not make sense because their traditions, views on life and principles were completely different from ours. They had a lot of customs that don't make sense to us. Keep in mind, it is simply a documentation of the historical events. This does not mean God justified what they did, he acted with man by their "hardheartedness."

In fact, the Bible shows how the rest of Israel got angry for this crime and wanted to wipe out a whole tribe for it. Today you will see that many criminals who rape and brutally kill women and children are set free within a few years. But in the Bible we see these things are not and were never welcomed by God.

He loves all, and you see in the Bible that the Samaritan woman whom none of the Jews would want to talk to or respected--Jesus talked to her because He saw potential in her and longing heart. Nobody else could see this. People actually ridiculed the woman, but Jesus saw deeper than others. He did not separate people by gender or race, He loved everyone. The Bible actually says that all men are made of one blood... You see He ate and drank with the tax collectors who everyone hated, but He knew they needed Him. As He said, it is not those who are well who need a doctor, but those who are sick.
Or Mary Magdalene, she was the first to whom Jesus showed Himself after He rose.

The first people who went to Jesus' tomb after He was crucified were women, they were not scared of the soldiers, they had a lot of courage. If you think, facing Roman soldiers is pretty scary, but their main concern was, "who will move the stone away from the tomb?" They had a lot of courage because they loved Jesus. He knew this, and He loved each of them. God loves both men and women. The Old Testament simply shows humans realistically how they were back then.


Now on with the story, when the rest of Israel found out, they stood up against the entire tribe where these criminals came from--the tribe of Benjamin.

It started a whole massacre, and the tribe of Benjamin was almost completely wiped out. Even though it was only a few dirty men from their tribe who tortured the woman--a lot of people who were innocent ended up dying.
If the tribe of Benjamin would have been wiped out, we would not have the apostle Paul. This was a very significant part of the history of Israel. The Bible is interconnected, Old and New Testament, and as a whole picture, it makes sense indeed.

A lot of what is written in the Bible is not pretty, it shows that the hearts of man can be easily corrupted--it does not mean God justifies this. A lot of the things documented are like lessons for us. By having it written, I believe God shows us the corruption of Israel and what it led to. It helps me as a Christian not to follow that path. God does not get in the way of what people choose, if they choose to deny Him, He just says, "Ok, have it your way then" and you see them fall into corruption. The Old Testament simply shows what Israel did when it stepped away from God.

If this piece of information about the poor woman would not be written in the Bible, it would not make sense why the war started, and if the Bible would not mention the war, a part of the history of Israel would be missing.

And since the apostle Paul was a descendant from the tribe of Benjamin, if that tribe were wiped out, there would be no Paul. The Bible does not justify the actions just because it shows that indecent. A lot of people did wrong things, and the Bible only documents these things in when it pertains to important parts of history.

If you read Matthew 19, it explains a little bit of this idea about the Old Testament:
"3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"

4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?

6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"

8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."

You see that "because of your hardness of heart," that is a key phrase to the Old Testament. God sometimes answers prayers, like when Hezekiah asked God to prolong his life, God gave him another 15 years. You see that God granted him his request, but this brought about evil later on. When people demand certain things, God sort of says, "Ok, since you want it so badly, here you go." Or when their hearts harden, God steps away. And we see later on that God knew better all along. In the Old Testament a lot of people had hard hearts, and God dealt with them according to their hard hearts. He gave man a free will, and He won't force them into anything.

Same with other strange, scary places in the Bible, if you look into the continuing story, it all makes sense.

In the beginning of the Bible, Cain killed Abel. According to the Bible, God gave man a free will, if we were programmed to seek Him, that would defeat the whole purpose. There is a place that says that we have an even greater place than angels, because it is harder to follow God when you have a free will. We would never want someone to love us forcibly, none the less God... He wanted to see if His creation would seek Him, that is how we believe...

The Old Testament is a documentary of the events that played a role in the history of Israel. God never contradicts Himself, and one should not take places of the Bible out of context. It is important read on to see the significance of that event to other events and see if it contradicts itself.
The Old Testament shows how cruel and heartless people can become. It is a lesson for us not to repeat the same mistakes.


Another problem is people often judge God by the action of so called 'Christians' who do completely foolish things. Like when the Catholic church or other churches began doing evil things, people say, "Oh, so this is what God teaches huh?"
People often call themselves something, but they do it for their own benefits. For example, many churches suck money out of people, they try to bring people to God through entertaining them or Hell-scaring them. You gotta know the teaching, people are often not a faithful indicator. Among Christians, it is hard to find those who truly live by what they believe.

People turn out to be wicked a lot of times, and even among believers. A lot of them killed Indians "in the name of God." That's why we gotta test the teaching, not make judgments based on a few no-good people. There are false people in most every organization or group of people, religious or not...
Now I do not believe that a particular denomination is the only one where there are God's children. I think God has His people in the Catholic church, Baptist, and everywhere else. We may disagree in little details, but as long as the essentials and main building blocks are there... When a person seeks the Face of God from the bottom of their heart, that is what is important as I see it. I stick to the King James Version of the Bible because as far as has been researched, it is the most un-tampered with translation of the original writings....

Now this is my say. I hope this won't come off as some aggression or argument, I simply stated by beliefs and views, and I understand a lot of people are fed up with "know-it-all" Christians who place themselves above everyone and send others off to Hell. That is not the point, I believe God is open to all of us, I believe in Him with all my heart. After seeing the great faith of my grandparents and how my grandfather died with a peaceful smile and said, "I want to go to Jesus," I knew I wanted that same peace. My grandfather was my greatest example, and even people who did not believe in God said he was the most amazing person. He literally lived by what he believed, which even among Christians is rare to see.

We all have various thoughts on this, and I thought I would just add mine... I know it's rather lengthy, but it's that kinda topic...

And in reply to the first post here, I had a few thoughts...

About these quotes, who are they by? Are they backed by the Bible? People who are so called "Christian" often say many things that contradict the teachings of the Bible. We know there are always those who can ruin the reputation of either a family, a country or any other organization. Same goes for those who claim they believe in the Bible. You gotta know the teaching. If someone rips things out of context, and says, "look here what this says" but ignores the rest of the text, that does not mean it is so...

Now God does not simply "choose" to reveal Himself to some and leave others just because. The way I believe in God is that He is all-knowing. He knew our paths before we were even born. He gave man a free will, and He knew ahead of time what people will choose. God can see the hearts of those who seek Him and who fervently long for Him. He sees the motives of man and there are many places of the Bible that confirm this. I believe in God as the Bible describes Him, and it says He is all-knowing. I believe He created the universe. And I think that if He created the universe, our hearts and feelings, He knows very well what is going through our mind.

If He sees a person is sincere in seeking Him, He will open Himself to that person. "Seek and you shall find."
Like I said in the other post in this message, God made us with a free will.

And there is no such thing as being too compassionate. We are to have compassion towards all people alike, that is what the Bible teaches.

Also, someone mentioned the part where the Bible says that we should be as children because theirs is the Kingdom of God. That doesn't mean you are literally like a child that you believe everything that is told and are completely you are "remote, uneducated humans." He meant it that children are not sly, they are much cleaner and more honest than a lot of adults. It is like where the Bible says "Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."
We must take on the good traits in children or doves and serpents...

Children do have a lot of things we can learn from, and that is what Jesus meant. This was a good message for the Pharisees, because they were very wicked and sly. Children are not like that, they only learn these things as they get older. That honesty and clean heart is the part where we can learn from children...

This is what I believe anyway, I don't want to come off as though I'm forcing my beliefs here, I'm just stating my viewpoint on these issues...