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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,517
Best Friend
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Best Friend
Joined: Apr 2006
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A little more on the writings of 'Luke'....I've just read an article by a BD Muller (linked from earlychristianwritings.com) who points out the discrepancies between the Gospel of Luke and Acts:
"Certainly the ending of the gospel does not fit well with the beginning of 'Acts':
a) "Luke" had (the resurrected) Jesus in person sending to the disciples the "Promise" (the Spirit) before departing to heaven. But in 'Acts' the Holy Spirit will fill the apostles later at Pentecost (2:4).
b) Then the author suggested they left Jerusalem after being "endued with power from on high". But in 'Acts', the disciples stay in Jerusalem, immediately involved in leadership & missionary work, and are never mentioned to go back home.
c) Furthermore, right after the alleged ascension, the disciples' task is NOT to replace Judas (as in Ac1:15-26), in order to pursue "this ministry". Instead "... [they] were continually in the temple praising and blessing God ..." (Lk24:53)"
Also:
"a) The seemingly very short (and tentative) apparition to the disciples in Lk24:36-49 is extended to forty days in 'Acts':
1:3 "He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God."
b) The barely mentioned ascension in Lk24:51 ("He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.") is described and witnessed (seen) in 'Acts'1:9 "... while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight."
From all of this, Muller concludes that the author 'improved' on the earlier account he had written in the Gospel.
There could be something in that......
In fact it has struck me before that Acts shows the resurrected Jesus spending 40 days with his disciples, in contrast to the few brief appearances he makes in the Gospels.
This DOES look suspiciously like embellishment to me!
In Mark - the oldest Gospel - the earliest surviving texts don't even mention the resurrected Jesus, just an empty tomb - the later version has Jesus making three brief appearances, in the last one making a brief speech to the disciples before ascending directly to heaven;
In Matthew - again the resurrected Jesus makes just a couple of brief appearances;
In Luke - Jesus makes two short appearances, then a longer one in which he leads his disciples out to Bethany before ascending to heaven;
In John - Jesus makes four appearances and this time seems to stick around long enough to do a spot of fishing with his disciples....not mentioned in any of the older Gospels;
And by the time we get to Acts, Jesus stays around for a full forty days before ascending to heaven!
To me this looks like a tale that got taller with the passage of time......
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Joined: Dec 2004
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True Blue Soulmate
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True Blue Soulmate
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,790 |
Challenge ~ is there any real proof that Christianity and the Bible ARE real?
Yes, C S Lewis was a convert to Christianity (Tolkien helped to convert him and Tolkien has managed to convince a lot of people of the existence of Middle Earth, too) but some people convert to Christianity and some convert from it.
I was talking about all the effort that is being put into 'interpreting' the Bible, by fundamentalists, and others, who already believe and are justifying their faith, or attempting to convert others.
Why don't they at least acknowledge the lack of logic in their religion?
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,666
Tin Star Soulmate
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Tin Star Soulmate
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,666 |
Originally posted by Challenge:
1) There are plenty of people who started out as Christians and through the same research have come to the conclusion that Christianity is a fraud and have left the faith. This includes many ministers as well.
2) The Qu'ran is just a doctrine to Muslims the same way the New Testament is just a set of historical niceities to Christians. It is their Bible, plain and simple.
3) The War for Armageddon between Gog and MaGog is talked about in the Qu'ran also. But the Muslims win that one, and the "infidels" including the Christians, are thrown in to the eternal hell.
Be sure to pack lightly, I hear it's hot down there.
2: There is a difference between a doctrine and what the Bible is. The Bible is an account, mostly, correspondences. It is the holy word of God. Yes, there is doctrine in it; of course. I know this is besides the point but the Bible is not the doctrine of the Christian, although it has all the instruction we need in it. a doctrine by itself is the set of rules one must follow for that religion. the Bible is much, much more.
3: As for that, personally, I believe is that a man interpreted the Bible and made his own religion out of it. That is a personal belief and totally debatable. But I don't see how what you have stated makes a point--other than the Bible and the Qu'ran are similar in certain areas of writing. 1) Are you really interested in reading why Christianity is a fraud and people leave it? I can give you lots of reading. Just like you said, you came to a conclusion that Christianity is the truth for you. I didn't. I find Christianity to be a cult, a fraud perpetrated by Paul and twisted by the Romans. These people examined the "faith" also and realized what I know about Christianity. 2) Ask any Muslim what they think of their Holy Book. It is their Bible, just as Holy as yours. It has their instructions for life and faith, just like yours. 3) The point is they have prophesies too. Christians don't have a monopoly on prophetic writings or interpretation. Their Armageddon is as real to them as yours is to you. Christianity is a fraud.
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,666
Tin Star Soulmate
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Tin Star Soulmate
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,666 |
Hotep (Peace) Brothers & Sisters, My (birth) name is Ray Hagins. My spiritual name is Sa Ra Ankh Hotep Maakheru Setep En Ra (which means “a son of God, who has been chosen by God to be a teacher of truth bringing (or giving) life and peace).” I presently serve as the Chief Elder and Pastor of The Afrikan Village (formerly New Ephesus Missionary Baptist) Church in St. Louis, Missouri. Many people have asked me about how I made the transition from a Pentecostal minister (who was “sold out” for the so-called gospel of Jesus Christ) to an Afrikan conscious minister and warrior for the liberation of Black Afrikan people. After sharing my testimony with another minister, he suggested that I post the testimony of my transition into Afrikan consciousness on the Internet in hopes of inspiring other brothers and sisters who may be at the point of coming into an Afrikan awareness from the quantum deception of European philosophical and religious thought. I pray that my testimony will help to strengthen and inspire others who are at the crossroads of right knowledge. In 1987 I was invited to a meeting of about 25 Black men (educators, businessmen, community leaders, and 3 ministers) in my hometown of Paterson, New Jersey. Although the meeting had not started, we were informally talking about what needed to be done to enhance our community. Suddenly, I overheard one of the brothers say, "We need to get this European Jesus out of the minds of our people, and realize that the original Christ was named Horus." Read More Here: http://www.theafrikanvillage.org/pastor/testimony.html There are hundreds more out there.
Science flies you to the moon
Religion flies you into buildings
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,517
Best Friend
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Best Friend
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,517 |
1: Anyone can come to conclusions. It would be nice to know what proof they had that Christianity and the Bible is NOT real.
If I told you I had seen an alien walking down my street today, would you believe me? Or would you ask for proof?
But then I could say, ah, but the burden of proof is on you, and you can't PROVE I DIDN'T see an alien walking down my street.
That's basically the argument you are using here about Christianity and the Bible.
No, I can't PROVE that the Bible is false. I also can't prove that Zeus and Odin, Santa and the Loch Ness Monster aren't real. Does that mean I should believe in them?
As to the Qu'ran, as far as Muslims are concerned, it is their Bible, like Mbas said. They believe it is the Word of God, just like Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God.
I can't prove they are wrong, either.
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Joined: Dec 2004
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True Blue Soulmate
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True Blue Soulmate
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,790 |
From another thread: 'It's not just Genesis, it's the Bible as a whole. The Bible is full of proof of it's divine inspiration. Look it up the Bible is full of prophecy, and instruction that were years ahead of it's time. To me it has proven itself to be the words of God.' 'Name one biblical 'prophecy' that has been objectively 'proved' to be fulfiled.' As to proven prophecy, the Babylonian captivity, the Assyrian captivity, the Roman occupation, the destructions of the temples, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the dispersion of the Jews not once but 3 times, the return of the Jews to Israel. All prophecies written several hundred years before they took place. Were they, though? Does anyone have an original, unaltered document written before these events took place? As far as I’m aware, the oldest known versions of the Old Testament date from round about the time of Jesus….so how do we know that these texts existed in identical form before that?
In any case, the ‘prophecies’ seem a bit vague. Just because they can be interpreted to fit certain events, doesn’t prove that the author had accurate premonitions of those events. For example, Nostradamus wrote some vague verses about a man who would invade Poland and bring about huge conflict and suffering. Some people say that this proves Nostradamus accurately predicted Hitler. Well maybe, but on the other hand, maybe it was just a coincidence. If Nostradamus had said something specific and verifiable, i.e. if he had said “A man called Armstrong will walk on the moon”, then I’d believe he could predict the future.
And it’s the same with the Bible…..some vague ‘prophecies’ that can be interpreted to fit later events….not proof, for me.
The oldest Old Testament documents we have are from around 150BC (Dead Sea Scrolls), and after that they're from around 980AD.
"Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling."
That being said you first have to understand why. The scribes who copied the Old Testament took great pride in their work, and believed it to be the Holy Word of God. As a result alot of fanfare went into copying a manuscript. For instance, each time they copied the word God, they said a prayer asking forgiveness for taking His name in vain. If a letter was out of place or wrong the entire scroll was scrapped. Some scribes memorized whole chapters and could recite them from memory. Scrolls were treated with importance, if one was damaged it was destroyed.
As for the prophecies contained in the old testament I just have to ask, have you read them? They're not as vague as you think, in addition they prove one thing if nothing else, God takes care of Israel. They were booted out not once, twice but three times. The last time they were kicked for well over 1000 years almost 2000, and yet there they are back in Israel. .... the Jews, well they're going back in droves. Not only have they managed to get back their country, but they've pretty much done the impossible. They've kept their identity as a people even after having no home.
Yes, I'm afraid the modern-day Jews sinmply aren't the same group as the Hebrews of old. It might be a nice romantic notion that fits in well with your religious belief, but the Jews haven't 'returned' to Israel. They've invaded a land that didn't belong to them.
Prophecies always come true if they're vague enough. I predict that in the next hundred years there will be war, famine and pestilence. This is likely to come true. It hardly proves me a great prophet. If I said something like 'man will walk on Mars on July 15th 2062' and it actually came true....well, that would be something else.
I just don't see why God would leave room for doubt. ....I haven't read every word of the Old Testament, but I have read of the prophecies Jesus is claimed to have fulfiled.
Two problems, for me: firstly, Jesus knew about the prophecies and therefore could have tried deliberately to 'fulfil' them. Secondly, the guys who wrote the Gospels could have added a few bits to make sure that the story had Jesus 'fulfiling prophecy'. Hi Joe, I seriously doubt Jesus would have wanted to fulfill the crucifixion especially since the night before his death he prayed to the father to overturn that decision. He did yield his will to his father, but nonetheless he agonized over it.
Jesus fulfilled over 300 OT prophecies. We just fail to acknowledge them.
Blessings,
Emilie
and previous pages
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,790
True Blue Soulmate
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True Blue Soulmate
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,790 |
The scribes who copied the Old Testament took great pride in their work, and believed it to be the Holy Word of God. As a result a lot of fanfare went into copying a manuscript. For instance, each time they copied the word God, they said a prayer asking forgiveness for taking His name in vain. If a letter was out of place or wrong the entire scroll was scrapped. Some scribes memorized whole chapters and could recite them from memory. Scrolls were treated with importance, if one was damaged it was destroyed. Yet MBAS found this: St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote, "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend,the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated."
Dr. Herbert Marsh, 19th century English Bishop, wrote, "It is a certain
fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen..."
Lucius Coelius Firmianes Lactantius, 3rd century Church Father, wrote, "Among those who seek power and gain from their religion, there will never be wanting an inclination to forge and lie for it." From Google's cache of ~ http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/isaiah53.html as retrieved on 5 Jul 2007 http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/isaiah53.html See thread: Bible: Errors in Translation http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=199751&page=0#Post199751
Last edited by PDM; 07/16/07 02:43 PM.
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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