Lisa Shea Forums Parakeets General Parakeet Chat Discussion about Handling Newbies and Trolls

Hi everyone

I know that I don't 'police' the forums as I once did, but I come on occasionally and I moderate anything that looks really bad to me ~ eg porn, etc.

There are a few things that I would like to say:

1. It is assumed that Lisa, Jilly or will automatically notice anything that anyone else might find offensive in any way. This, of course, is not the case. If you see something that breaks the rules or offends, then do click on 'notify.' This is what should be done ~ rather than sending PMs.

2. It is often assumed that everyone on here is offended by the same thing. This, also, is not the case. I am not talking specifically about current members, but about a trend. There is a trend on this forum for groups of friends to develop and for one group of friends to disagree with the other ~ or with new members ~ for whatever reasons, and then to send critical messages or alerts, each about the other ~ accusing them of being 'trolls' or of breaking rules, etc, etc.

I have had to spend hours, in the past, trying to untangle these disagreements. So, please remember ~ just because you think that you are right does not mean that everyone agrees with you. or, indeed, that they should agree with you. Always think, before you post, whether your tone or content could cause a negative effect on anyone.

I also think that some members have found the forum to feel a bit like a 'clique'. They see that one or two people dominate the number of posts and feel that they do not belong, or are not wanted ~ especially if they or their budgie skills are being criticised (and, yes, capital letters do upset people more, so I am pleased that Lisa has added that rule).

Messages about such an atmosphere on the forum have been flying around for some time ~ well before this current debacle, so Lisa is correct in saying that this recent upset is just one example of things that need looking at.

And this is nothing to do with the knowledge that members share and the help available. Rather, it is about the way people are made to feel when the information is given ~ and whether they get a negative 'feel' from the forum. If so, they will leave and they will not benefit from the help on offer ~ and neither will their pets! This would be very sad and is surely not what animal lovers want to happen.

3. 'Trolls'. What are they?

As Lisa said, we have had people on here labelled as 'trolls' from the minute they make their first post. Some may be. Others certainly are not. Some have been lambasted to such an extent that they have become very rude in response and have eventually been banned ~ for bad language, perhaps ~ when it was not their fault in the first place.

And, as Lisa also said, some of the people who say things that offend are having severe problems and need our help a lot more than others.

3. I know that Lisa has said that she does not want to concentrate, specifically, on one poster, but it seems that some members do ~ and the person in question is, presumably, 'OldPplLoveBirds'. If he is a 'troll' ~ seeking attention ~ then he must be having a field day. It would have been far better to ignore the bait, but some preferred to take it.

What has he done?
Written a little poem.
Asked two questions:
~ 'is it likely that albatrosses would ever resort to homosexuality - i ask because albatrosses are maybe like sailors who resort to homosexuality on long journies'
~ 'i want to see if it possible what it is i want to know if i can possibly force an albatross to have sex and imseminate a parakeet; i ask bcause i want to see if we can have like a giant parakeet because there so pretty but not very big'

'Serious' and 'unemotional' responses were given ~ and things that might be considered offensive were pointed out. I think that this is the best way to respond, while we sort out what is really going on. But then angry and very emotional posts were made ~ in spite of the fact that we warn members never to feed 'trolls' and not to take the bait. If that really is a troll, then those who did this responded exactly as he would have wanted.

As to his questions:
What if they had been worded slightly differently:
~ Albatrosses live quite solitary lives, do you think that, when there are no females around, they ever behave homosexually?
~ I think that a large colourful keet would be beautiful ~ is it possible to cross a parakeet with a much larger bird ~ even something as large as an albatross? They wouldn't mate in nature, so would I have to force them to mate?

What I am asking is this ~ is it the ideas in the posts that are offensive, or the vocabulary used?
If it is the vocabulary, then I wonder ~ have you considered that some people have not had as good an education as others, and that, for some people, English is their second language? Therefore, dismissing people out of hand, without allowing them a chance to prove themselves, is not always the best way to respond.

4. Lisa has set up this board which, as most would agree, is usually a pleasant place to converse. Surely this means that, generally, the admin team makes good decisions, so, why is it that the admin team is not trusted to do the right thing? (Bearing in mind that no-one is perfect.)

If an alert is sent, one or all of us will keep an eye on things, but, if forum members 'feed the trolls', then they will be well-nourished and will thrive. Unless it is obvious that someone is causing trouble from the start ~ and what may seem obvious to some may not always be correct ~ the best thing is to ignore the posts in question and let the admin team keep an eye on things.

That's about it for now, I think

Lisa..why is it so necessary for you to always divert from a issue of a specific topic and always necessary for you to try to put others in a spotlight instead of just handling in this case the many who were thoroughly disgusted with a obvious troll...which you still have not dealt with at all..which would of been very simple for you to do and it would of been end of topic...

but no you seem to like words like confused ...challenged and apply them to your users being very derogatory toward their capabilties of intelectual levels. I think your the one challenged and this is why you always...will bring up other things diverting from the original topic and thereby make others become defensive or feel they have to ...isnt that a form of cyber bullying...in and of itself..of course you will find a way to again divert from that its your style...as you dont see yourself as ever being wrong...only others.

This topic was never meant to be to open a discussion about your issues within the forum...if you wanted to do that you shouldnt have chosen a complaint issued by users about two post that are vulgar and insulting and have not even come close to offering a apology to our service men or your users who were subjected to that, then showed and taken some action regarding that one topic and dealt with those two post which are still not deleted...which would of shown support and sincerity that people were deeply offended....and you say you want respect when you yourself dont give it...

this is my last post regarding this...as you will continue to do the same as you always do and have done from everything ive seen in the past and that is to divert away from the main issue always saying how you receive emails about complaints that no one else knows or ever sees...and then singles out other posters and ill say it ...me...quite a lot...to disengage the real matter at hand..

which i could and can do as you twist it around, and complain,... that no poster should ever be singled out...

but its obvious Lisa, so dont even try to go there, saying that you dont do this.

Your the one challenged and confused as you seem to have some difficulty dealing with a specific direct complaint which brought you here about a offensive two post by a vulgar troll and obviously refuse to take any action about it but instead will use whatever you can to divert from that.

cyberbud...its common knowledge in here about you and i...and yes i do speak that way in real life you see i was at one time a speaker a public speaker regarding many local issues...and this is how public speakers talk...using one of the greatest to examine on how much they spoke in a way that i type is JFK...another Martin Luther King....so now you want to make a issue out of that also...

then i guess you need to do it with some of the greatest speakers in history...and im certain their speeches were heavily underlined and highlighted where to ...as some seem to like to call it SHOUT...

so Lisa im not challenged nor am i confused and im sure none of your members are either...im sure they have more intelligence than you would give them credit for because if you did give them a degree of having intelligence you wouldnt keep saying how they are confused and how some find some things challenging...its quite obvious....your the one with those issues. It will prove itself where you continue to move this discussion as you call, it in the direction you are, instead of dealing with that offensive thread...

it would of been so simple to just come and deleted those post an issued a apology to anyone who was offended and be done with it...but you cant ever seem to do that...without dragging a user down.

Feeling the power Lisa???...seems to be the only way you can...enjoy!

Gawd i hate to say it ...its truly sad but, seems you choose to make it necessary,...as you have not done one positive thing to prove otherwise....

by constantly diverting from this MAIN TOPIC of that vulgarity in those two threads an your lack of capability and willingness to simply delete it...showing this is very challenging to you...that the only way to resolve things with you Lisa is the same way someone would deal with a troll...

May God help us both.

To those who have more than once tried to keep Lisa on track(which is a effort in futility obviously) and deal with the specifics ..i, and im sure others are grateful...

Oh my gosh illusive, you hit the nail right on the head!! I KNOW you are good at "reading" birds, but I DIDN'T know you were a mind reader of humans too! It's like you've been traipsing around in my head. You just said perfectly what I have been thinking/feeling..only YOU were able to put it down in writing.
THANK YOU!

Ditto to illusive's above statement, all except for the part addressed to cyberbud, but I do see where she's coming from there also. I see NOTHING wrong with EMPHASIZING and WHEN it is called for even SHOUTING has its place!

PDM...ive always kinda felt where you are coming from and liked how you have done things for the most giggle...as you say no one is perfect ...so on that note ..i want to say...i will weigh YOUR words thru the days ahead and give considerations to ***some of what you have said with ONE exception

that troll was knowing what was being implied stated they are adult and served yet still posted two very vile post and i will not give the benefit of the doubt to that i dont even know what i want to call them ...but my feeling remain fully intact on those post and the lack of anything being done about them and left to be a thorn ...if true resolution was meant...that would be taken care of...BEFORE now.

Thanks PDM for who you are...by the way...not having ever registered much in the line of complaints myself i didnt know of the notify button and for some reason when you mentioned it ..it wasnt there for sometime...sigh..so the only recourse i could think of was to notify you in private...my apology if that was seen and taken offensively.

Illusive Fantasy,

The private message was not taken offensively, it is just that, if only one person gets the message, and that person isn't on the forum, then nothing will be done about the matter in question.

Alternatively, if the person then feels obliged to go onto the forum, when they are ill or busy, etc, because they know that no-one else is receiving a notification, then it can cause them problems.

Luckily the 'notify' button has now been found

now ya see...there is the difference on how to handle things...thanks PDM and yep it was found..sorry again about the private messaging...appreciate your understanding...more than you know.

Dear Illusive Fantasy -

Again it appears you are confused. The issue is NOT this troll. The issue has existed for at least the past three months and involves the hostile language used by certain forum members. I apologize if you have missed my statements on this. I will try to make it more clear.

The issue is with hostile, belittling language that certain forum members have used which is actively driving away new posters. This is an ongoing recurring issue which needs to be resolved.

In our rules -

http://www.lisashea.com/forum/rules.html

We state:

"2) NO INSULTS OF OTHER FORUM MEMBERS."

I would ask how this statement was meant:

"Feeling the power Lisa???...seems to be the only way you can...enjoy! "

That would seem to be - fairly clearly - an insult.

Also:

"tried to keep Lisa on track (which is a effort in futility obviously)"

Also, an insult.

Both of these are personal, derogatory attacks.

Maybe the issue is that we need to define more clearly what an insult is? It may be that you honestly feel these are supportive statements. Is that true?

In the meantime, this is an issue that needs to be addressed. This is a very serious impediment which is damaging the ability of our forum to bring in new members.

Lisa

Everyone.

The only true way to DEFEAT a 'Troll', if that is what you think someone is, is not to respond at all. Not with kindness, and definitely not with hostility. If you take their question(s) as being real and honest, then answer them. If not, use the 'Notify' button, ignore them, and don't go back to their thread again, EVER. It is that easy. To attack them, in any fashion, is only feeding into what a 'Troll' is going for. They are sitting at their computer monitor laughing their butt off at how easy you were to bait and get under your skin. And then they devise some other way to do it again. You are only adding fuel to the fire.

I must say that I read the posts that people are talking about, thought what I thought, and didn't respond. And once all of this came to a head, I haven't felt the urge to come back to this forum for a couple days. Eventually I did because I know that there are people here with legitimate needs/concerns that I may be able to assist them with.

It seems that all of this has gone WAY farther than it should have. The answer is simple, it's in my first paragraph.

Dear XPR15SR -

Thank you very much for your post!

You are exactly right in your evaluation of healthy troll response. Once you ask a few probing questions, to help determine if the person is just an upset 13 year old who was having an awful day, then the next response is to stop the discussion.

So in essence it is a sorting process, to sort between the upset 13 year old who would love to be a part of our helpful community, and the prankish 13 year old who is too bored for his own good. In both cases they're typically just young, confused kids.

I'm sorry but I don't recall any "hostile, belittling language" being used, and certainly none that would drive new posters away. YES we might sometimes stress certain points, maybe even LOUDLY at times, to get the message across as to how SERIOUS and possibly even life threatening certain situations are if not taken care of ASAP. In all honesty I don't think sugar coating things makes a person sit up and take notice as to how critical a situation may be. And there are times when one person asks the same question over and over only because they are HOPING someone might give a different answer than what others have already given...only trying to take an "easier" way out. There is of course no law that says anyone HAS to heed the advice given, but it frustrating when they keep asking over and over just hoping for an easy fix, especially when time is of the essence.
I don't think apologies are in order for trying our best to give straight forward honest advice when it comes to caring for, and medical issues with these birds.
Lisa you said yourself that people come here from all over the world, speaking all different languages. True enough. We ALL have our own ways/styles of talking/communicating. No matter what we say, different people have different ways of interpreting it, and some may find it as SHOUTING, and others simply see it as passionate honest advice and answers to questions. There is no way we can make everyone happy all the time. It's just a fact of life.
But HONESTLY I haven't seen anyone being hostile or belittling. WHERE are you seeing this? Mind sharing a few of the "many" email complaints so we know exactly what you/they are referring to?????