Lisa Shea

Gender Identity Disorder

Posted By: Niki

Gender Identity Disorder - 04/07/10 06:57 PM

I'm finding this very difficult to have an opinion on.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-identity-disorder

It's the topic of my recent online class Abnormal Psychology discussion, and I'm unsure of how to proceed.

Is it a disorder, a malfunctioning for one to wish to be another gender? Should transvestites be rehabilitated and placed under therapy to help them deal with their physicality, or encouraged to express themselves however they feel comfortable? Should we look at them as mentally ill, or simply different?
Posted By: Mongrel

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/07/10 07:41 PM

The only perfect personality is the one that grew up in a perfect environment(without abuse or delay) and I understand that. But simply put - If you don't know whether you have a bing or a boo then you need to simply pull them down and take a look. I can only think of two functions that are more basic than those and they are all generally related.

Unlike moral, social or religious problems your bing, or your boo, is not really debatable or at least it's not for me. Man must be masculine and Verile ready take care of and defend Woman and the Woman must be ready to bear child and they must be ready to care for that child together. It's not religious nor academic, social nor political it is simply HUMAN. More than human it is mammal or it is universal to our planet.

I am sorry for I get tired of these yitties whining about their trans-surgeries and how they are really something their not though how they cannot afford the procedure or what not? It is a little disorienting. I do apologize for that is about as conservative as I get.

I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I AM IN NO WAY ARGUING WITH ANYONE HERE. PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE HOW THEY WANT TO LIVE WITH A BING OR A BOO?

Posted By: joandboys

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/07/10 07:47 PM

why are you haveing a problem haveing an opinion? Is it because you are looking at it from a religious standpoint?

Wouldn't that be looking at a modern day illness from the standpoint of a medical book published in the 1800's when they still thought leeches could cause a cure simply by draining your bad blood?

There is insurmountable proof that there is probably not only emotional causes but biological causes for this condition.

Notice that I call it a condition. Just the fact that the medical description contains the word "Disorder" is agredgious to anyone who has this condition. It assumes if you are not like most others and quote unquote normal that you somehow are out of "order".

Helping someone accept their differences and accept that they may be that way for the rest of their lives and that it will be okay if they are, is the true path to "order".

That is or is purported to be the true path of Christianity also. Love one another as you would yourself. It doesn't say "but only if one another is exactly like yourself".

Once again, the creator is questioned by the creation and thought to be in error it seems.

That there is a difference does not matter. That the difference is accepted does.

It is not what is in the mind but what is in the heart.

Ask yourself, if a person suffering from this so called disorder were to stand before Christ. Would he say "I died for all mankind's sins but not yours".

How can any of us be so bold as to feel we need an opinion?

Do those who worship Christ believe that he stuttered and stammered and said "well, this is what I think but you form your own opinion on it.

I understand that when you are studying the bible and religion they expect you to intellectualize and disect and you automatically feel you need to form opinions.

I have nothing against opinions.

It just seems so duplicitous for someone who believes to forget the principles they say they live by. I want to make myself clear. I am not referring to "you". I am referring to the concept you are discussing. I am offering an opinion on your question as it applies to people in general so please do not feel offended. It is not directed at you but rather the concept of an "opinion" by anyone about this matter.

It is not much better for others who are not believers to be concerned about an opinion. Rather they might be better off wondering "why" they need one. Not "what" it should be.

If we look at one another as simply human and created equal whether it is in "God's" eyes or not we would be so much better off in my humble opinion.

Posted By: Mongrel

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/07/10 08:09 PM

They actually still use sterile leeches in the modern medicine. They use sterile maggots too! It's kinda neat! Yea for real I saw it on Discovery Channel. There is some kind of spider that they use for its venom as a direct injecting antibacterium.
Posted By: MW1

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/07/10 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Niki
Is it a disorder, a malfunctioning for one to wish to be another gender? Should transvestites be rehabilitated and placed under therapy to help them deal with their physicality, or encouraged to express themselves however they feel comfortable? Should we look at them as mentally ill, or simply different?


I have never really had an opinion on the matter - one way or the other. But I have recently been exposed to two things that have made me think about how I feel about transgenders: a tv show and an article in a very popular magazine ("O Magazine") published this month. The tv show is about these three transgenders that have gone through the surgery and now help women and men dress, look, and feel better - boost their self confidence by helping those individuals learn to be happy with themselves - which I think is perfect because transgenders must have to go through so much in order to learn how to accept themselves - imagine feeling like you were never in the right body for your entire life - which is the way I see it coming about - as opposed to it coming about because it was the way they were raised or the other suggestions they have on the link you provided. I believe this to be true because imagine what these individuals must go through in order to look like the sex they truly believe themselves to be - not only is it expensive, but it's after years of living with yourself and figuring yourself out and then ultimately making that decision to go through with the change - then having to go through that extensive process. The other article was about a woman falling in love with a man and then that man telling her that he used to be a she. It goes through her telling her family and them asking her if she's gay, etc. etc. Well - long story short it's a love story and it ends happily ever after. I would suggest buying the magazine if you can get access to it - it's a really great read and very eye-opening.

I talked to my husband about this the other day - say if he were dating someone and he found out that she used to be a he - he said that would be an ultimate deal-breaker. I don't think I would react that way - it would be an adjustment and I'd want to get an understanding of everything and sure telling my parents would be difficult, but if I loved someone and wanted to be with that person, it wouldn't matter to me if they used to be a she because in my mind, they were always a he, they were just trapped in a she body. Sorry for using the "he/she" wording - it's not meant to offend - just seemed easier and more brief.

I don't see transgenders as mentally ill - they are individuals that have gone down a different path than the "norms" of society. Therapy might help them cope with who they are, but ultimately they know what's best for them and will make that decision. I would encourage them to find what makes them happy and comfortable - if that's going the surgery route - then so be it and I'm glad for them. They are strong individuals to go through that because I can't begin to imagine the ridicule they must go through during that stage in their life when they have to live the life of the opposite sex for a certain period of time in order to prove that they ar mentally ready to go through with the entire operation. I believe that's accurate - don't know how long they must live/act as the other sex... please someone correct me if I'm mistaken.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 12:25 AM

Yes, I don't see this as something to have an actual 'opinion' on.

Some people are born in bodies that do not represent their actual genders. It must be awful for them. It must affect them psychologically.

As far as I am aware, these people are not transvestites and they are not mentally ill ~ and it doesn't feel quite right, to me, for a religious college to be looking at such people as some kind of 'project'.

Maybe I have misunderstood?
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 03:31 AM

I think I have such a difficult time having an opinion one way or another because it seems too close to the homosexuality debate. Psychology once considered that to be a disorder also, and not that long ago at all. Psychology had deemed it unnatural and a product of trauma and negative environmental effects. Mainstream society agreed, yet now we accept it as a proper sexual expression. We've also gotten to the point of accepting fetishes (bondage for example) to where it's almost... attractive? When fetishes are still, technically, by the book considered a disorder.

I'm trying to keep all that in mind in relation to transvestites. Does that help make the issue clear?

And joandboys... not looking at it through a religious standpoint, I'm an Atheist. ;P BUT! The college is Christian. That isn't effecting my ability to express my opinions though. I can't inform them of my religious beliefs or I'll most likely be expelled, but I can have opinions and not feel the need to hide them.
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 03:59 AM

Actually, there's another issue.

Can people who have this disorder ever feel comfortable as their biological gender? Can they feel comfortable being the opposite gender, or will always be in a state of anxiety? We assume that it can be treated and that it's as simple as environmental trauma, but are we right? We say that about homosexuality as well, but even with extensive counseling and hormonal treatment, people continue their lives with deep internal struggle.
Posted By: BLR

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 12:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Niki
I'm trying to keep all that in mind in relation to transvestites. Does that help make the issue clear?


I am sure you meant to type transexual, if you did not you need to become more familiar with the terms that describe different sexual preferances.
Posted By: MW1

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 02:31 PM

Transvestites are typically men who like to dress up as women. It doesn't necessarily mean these men wish they were women or that they are gay - it's just something they like to do.

For the sake of discussion: transsexual and transgender mean the same thing.

Originally Posted By: Niki
Can people who have this disorder ever feel comfortable as their biological gender?


I could be wrong, but I don't view this as a disorder, that is, if you speak of the disorder in the sense that it's a mental disorder. Not sure why, I just have trouble accepting it in those terms.

Originally Posted By: Niki
We assume that it can be treated and that it's as simple as environmental trauma, but are we right? We say that about homosexuality as well, but even with extensive counseling and hormonal treatment, people continue their lives with deep internal struggle.


To "we", as a society, that are not specifically going through what these individuals (both transgender and homosexual), it may seem it as something to be treated - but I don't think that's accurate. I believe transgenders are born this way - there was some sort of hormonal mix-up or something when they were being made. And I believe that hormones are not something that can be couseled away - medicated, possibly, but with the involvement of the brain and any developments within that, it could make it more difficult to "counsel away".

Let's take for example a very basic issue, that most people would not associate with hormones and one that I have experience with: wetting the bed. My father did it, I did it, my little sister did it - well into our childhood years (I'm talking until I was 10 or 11, maybe even sporadically after that). My little sister and I tried everything so we wouldn't wet the bed at night - ranging from working/strengthening muscles in that region, not drinking anything 2 to 3 hours before going to bed, going to the restroom just before bed then having our parents wake us up to go to the restroom again when they were going to bed. We tried beepers that would wake us up if it detected anything happening. All this was to no avail. It wasn't until I was 10 that the doctors were able to determine that my wetting the bed was a result of an underdeveloped hormone. I started taking nasal spray every night before bed as a hormone additive or replacement (I don't know exactly what) - and this pretty much stopped me wetting the bed. I eventually grew out of it because my hormone eventually developed - but this was something I grew up with and had to deal with - no sleep overs, no over night summer camps, etc. because I would always wet the bed and end up embarassing myself. My issue was something that was able to be treated because it wasn't a missing hormone, it was just a deficient one that eventually fully developed over time.

Now what I believe about transgenders is that they were born with something missing, not something that was underdeveloped, etc. And I believe you could only immitate that missing hormone, or whatever, for a period of time before it is eventually realized this treatment is only prolonging the inevitable and hiding who these people truly are. You can't counsel away nature.

I'm not sure how I feel about homosexuals - some may be born that way as evidenced in the way they act as children, while others may choose this path down the road (as evidenced by people being married for 30 years and realizing that they are happier with people of the same sex - I have seen this happen to one of my friends parents). This is an entirely different topic though from the one at hand, and therefore I will not delve into it.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/08/10 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: MW1
.... You can't counsel away nature. .....

True smile
Posted By: Lisa Shea

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/11/10 09:32 AM

I feel that each person has their own unique path to walk and that only they can know what that path entails. We are all so wildly different from each other. Some are raised by loving parents, Others by abusive parents. Some are raised in caste societies. Others are raised on communes. There is no "one way" or one label or one style. We are all incredibly unique, which makes our world so wonderful. Isn't it amazing that we have such a myriad of thoughts and opinions and chosen paths!

So if someone has a dream inside to be female, I say they should enjoy that dream. Life is far too short for any person to spend their life upset and grumpy over something that can be changed. If they have a goal, they should head towards it and achieve it. I wish them all the best of luck.

If I suddenly learned that Bob, my partner of 13 years, had been female once, it would not bother me at all. I love him, his mind, his emotions, his dreams - not any specific piece of his anatomy.
Posted By: joandboys

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/12/10 05:03 AM

I truly believe that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks except the person who is experiencing the gender identity problem.

Many persons experiencing these feelings don't understand completely what is going on. Family and society teaches them they should feel and be different from how they really feel.

Of course this leads to feelings of alienation and sometimes self loathing as well.

Society in general doesn't accept them and that makes it hard to accept themselves.

If they are lucky enough to get counseling and lucky enough to find acceptance and understanding they become much happier.

The key seems to be acceptance. Acceptance from family. Acceptance from friends. Acceptance of ones self.

The most important being of ones self. The whole world can be accepting of you but if you are a victim of self loathing you are in misery.

Unfortunately, all too often society is intolerant of anything that falls outside of the so called quote un quote "Norm".

How often do we see teen agers taunted until they hang themselves or pick up a gun and start killing people at a school.

People who are suffering from gender identity suffer until they truly learn to love themselves and accept who they are.

In my opinion we should worry less about what "we" feel about these individuals and more about what "they" feel about themselves. The ability to empathize is so important. The ability to feel anothers pain. What a wonderful world it would be if we all tried to walk in anothers shoes for just one day.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/12/10 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: joandboys
.... Unfortunately, all too often society is intolerant of anything that falls outside of the so called quote un quote "Norm" .....

Sadly, too often, too true smile
Posted By: MW1

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/12/10 04:00 PM

I'm curious to see what all of the above comments have made you think about Niki?
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/14/10 09:43 PM

[quote=MW1]I'm curious to see what all of the above comments have made you think about Niki? [/quote

Well, first of all I apologize for my ignorance in term-usage. =P Totally my fault and not intentional.

Second, I'm still a little fuzzy.

I can understand people having their own path. I can understand us having one life and all. But I have a serious problem with the question of if transgender identification is natural or a biproduct of un-natural conditioning or parental abuse.

I use un-natural with caution. Let me explain.

I can almost assuredly say that all of us, at some point in our childhood, explored ourselves and thought "why am I male/female?" When I was little, I remember asserting that I was a male! To this day, I don't know why. I was extremely young and remember very little. I didn't even know the biological difference between a man and a woman, I just rebelliously told my mom that I didn't want to be what she said I was just because she told me I was! I'm sure many of us had similar experiences, or just instances where maybe as a boy you tried on a dress of lipstick, or as a girl you did as I did or similar.

The key point here seems to me to be how parents react to this exploration of gender. Two things can happen: gently direct the child to "natural" expressions, or encourage them to explore whatever expressions the child wants to.

My question is, is encouraging a child to act, dress, and want to be a gender that he/she was not born okay? Or is it unnatural conditioning and not fair to the child? Is it too much to encourage a child at such a young age? Is it too much to push the child to, if he wants, to wear a dress to school at 5 years old?

Does anyone else know what I mean? I hope I'm not being unfriendly or intolerant in my use of words.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/14/10 11:50 PM

There was an article on this in the newspaper the other day ~ it concerned Angelina and Brad's daughter, who, at three, gets all her clothes from boys' shops and insists on being called John. Her mother seems to support her in this and her father seems to be amused by it.

I don't think that a big thing should be made of it. After all, many clothes are unisex nowadays. Putting a boy in a dress may seem to be going too far, I suppose, but it seems unfair on him, if that is what he really wants.

I remember reading about the subject of transgender when I was quite young. As far as I remember, while the baby is in the womb, it is sort of hermaphrodite and the sex organs can develop into male or female. For some babies, this development is either not complete at birth, or is malformed at birth ~ just as a child might be born with six fingers, for example ~ so a girl could physically appear to be a boy and vice versa.

If a girl is born looking like a boy and is registered as a boy and brought up as a boy, she will still be a girl ~ and vice versa, so we are not talking about transvestites or homosexuals or anything like that, we are talking about people whose bodies were not correctly formed to correspond with the child's gender.

I think that there is probably a 'sliding scale' where in some cases this becomes obviouis while in others it will not be so obvious, and hormone treatment will be required to effect the sex change completely.
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 12:55 AM

Well, hermaphodites are vastly different than those who "suffer"/experience gender identity disorder. With the later, it's a psychological disorder. After doing more reading, it's pretty clear that they don't really know what cause it. One study did found that in some cases with men the bed nucleus of stria terminalis (BST) in the brain is smaller than usual (women have smaller ones then men). But the study is conclusive yet.

Also, despite my last post about children, apparently the disorder rarely continues through childhood to adulthood, but rather manifests itself in mid-adulthood! From what I've read, there are either too many varying causes, or no known cause.

So now, I'm even more confused on what opinion to hold.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 08:07 AM

Well, Niki, is it really a psychological disorder, or is that simply what 'society' has labeled it?

What do we mean, exactly, by terms like 'psychological disorder' and 'medical condition'?

Why can't people just be who they are, without being labelled by others as psychologically or medically 'wrong', just because they are in a minority?

Why and how can anyone have 'an opinion' on this?

Do people have 'opinions' on babies born with an extra finger, or a 'hare-lip', or a missing limb, or underdeveloped lungs, or ... whatever?

People are born as they are born, and medicine can help those born with something that is considered out of the normal range. This may be something life-threatening, like the underdeveloped lungs, or it might simply be something out of the ordinary, like an extra digit.

The medical profession can help people who feel that they have been born in the wrong body. Surgeons can help by changing that body. Psychologists can help by counselling them through whatever is going on (many of us have had counselling). But does this mean that the people involved have a medical or psychological disorder?

I think that the answer would depend upon one's definition. But I do think that those who are not in a position to fully understand these definitions should be careful about having opinions on such 'disorders'. (Similar, I suppose, Niki, to your suggestion that those not educated in the Bible should not have opinions on Biblical matters.)

If we think about it, 'they' (whoever 'they' may be) could label homosexuality a 'psychologigal gender identity disorder', if 'they' wanted to. It seems, to me, that the label has been placed there because society feels uncomfortable with people who do not 'conform' for some reason. (I suppose that this may even be the case for disabled people.)

Certainly, someone who is being forced to behave as a male, because that is what they look like, may feel depressed, disturbed, confused, etc, etc, so they may seem to be in need of psychological help, but, if they were accepted for who really they really were, and, if required, helped to change the way they looked to the way they feel ~ in the same way that a child who had been born with any other feature not 'correctly' developed would be helped ~ then I'm guessing that no psychological help might be required.

Have a read of this:
Originally Posted By: Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph. D
'.. everything was so confusing as I grew up. It's like, one day I was absent and everybody else was taught the crucial aspects of being a boy or girl. I would lie in bed at night practicing and rehearsing how to be a boy. One day in middle school, after being pushed around again, a principal tried to teach me to "stop crying" and "be a man." Bullies, teachers, and others taught me the same thing: there was something terribly wrong with my feelings. I tried so hard to purge from myself every expression of emotion. Really I only needed to be taught one lesson; we do not need to learn to be ourselves, we just are ourselves. Or maybe what it means to be a person is that we invent ourselves. In 1998 I transitioned; I no longer practiced being a boy, I just became a girl.'
http://www.genderpsychology.org/
Originally Posted By: Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph. D
'Removal of the mental illness diagnostic categories "Gender Identity Disorder" and "Tranvestic Fetishism" is recommended to allow for objective scientific work and to heal the divisive relationships between the mental health and transgendered communities.'
http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/index.html


This is from the UK Guardian:
Quote:
'Although it is still not known what causes GID, it is regarded as a medical condition and one study shows that amniocentesis, which tests for spina bifida in pregnancy, can cause a surge of hormones to the foetus, which in turn, can trigger a hormonal imbalance in the child resulting in GID.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2003/aug/20/health.genderissues


Quote:
'Gender Identity Disorder (GID) is a medical condition characterized by an intense and persistent identification opposite to the genital sex to which one was born into. In order to warrant a diagnosis of GID the person must have these feelings for at least 6 months. The question that often arises is "how does this happen?". No one can pin point the exact cause of GID, but please keep in mind that this is not something unique to GID.'
Read more: http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=319#ixzz0l9X7fdBK


Also:
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9562897
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=81622
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Niki
... So now, I'm even more confused on what opinion to hold.

I have just re-read this and I am confused too.
Just what does this mean?
'Opinion' on what exactly?
What sort of 'opinion' might you be expected to have?
What 'opinions' do others hold on the matter?
Are 'they' asking for your opinion?
What is the reason behind this discussion at your college?
I am bewildered?
Do they discuss other 'disorders' in this way?

I was wondering ....
When / If ~ because of recessive genes ~ a white child is born to a Black family, and feels culturally out of place as a Black person in a white skin, is there a label for that?
Is there a 'Race/Ethnicity/Cultural Identity Disorder', that would require psychological and / or medical help and be labelled 'Abnormal Psychology'?
Might your college have a project on such people and ask you for an 'opinion' on the matter?
Would there be any logic to this?
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 05:53 PM

Honestly, your questions would better be asked to someone in the psychological field. I can't. I don't care about psychology as a field, I don't like it, and I sure don't understand it! We're discussing this topic because it's the subject of this week's reading. We have to give an opinion because.. well it's an online course and part of the requirements are to contribute to the online forum topics. It's part of our grade. To clarify, this was the topic proposal in its entirety: [quote]Most of the time, our sense of ourselves as male or female, known as gender identity, is consistent with our physical makeup. Children with male genitals act in accordance with societal expectations of male roles, and children with female physical sex characteristics exhibit the behaviors expected of girls. But this is not always the case. When children grow up feeling like their gender identity and their physical anatomy are in conflict, they may be diagnosed with gender identify disorder, characterized by feeling like they are trapped in the wrong body and by intense desires to behave as the other sex. Boys with gender identity disorder (the diagnosis is rare in girls) want to dress like girls, adopt female behaviors, and shun traditional male roles. Two recent examples indicate society’s difficulties in dealing with boys with gender identity disorder. Six-year-old Zachary Lipscomb started acting like a girl by the time he was two years old. He wanted his mother to buy him girls’ clothing. He fashioned dresses and wigs out of blankets and towels. When he was five he announced that he was a girl and wanted to have his ears pierced. His parents did what many experts in gender identity disorder suggest—let Zachary, by now known as Aurora or Rori at home—express the gender behaviors that he is comfortable with. So when Zachary went to school dressed as a girl, the school and the small community were up in arms. The county children services’ agency took the child into custody, alleging that the parents were unfit, in part, because they allowed Zachary to dress as a girl and call himself Aurora. The court agreed. Zachary has been placed in a foster home where he is required to wear boy’s clothing and act like a boy, in spite of mental health evidence that parents are better off to support their children’s unconventional gender expression. The authorities say that Zachary’s problem is caused by his parents’ own psychological problems. His mother has bipolar disorder; his father believes he has gender identity disorder and wants to have sex reassignment surgery and live as a woman. But a judge in Massachusetts took a different view. When a 15-year-old boy was suspended from public school for wearing girls’ clothing, including bras, wigs, and high heels, the judge ruled that the student (referred to as Pat Doe in the proceedings in order to protect the adolescent’s anonymity), who has been diagnosed with gender identity disorder, could wear any clothing that any other male or female student could wear. Pat’s therapist testified that forcing him to wear boys’ clothing would harm his mental health. The judge, who coincidentally is a lesbian, noted that a school could not stifle a person’s sense of self merely because the community was uncomfortable. Further, she suggested that student exposure to different lifestyles would make them more tolerant as adults. Psychologist Kenneth Zucker, who runs a treatment clinic for transgendered children in Canada, believes that being more accepting of children who reject their assigned gender may save the children from requiring sex-reassignment surgery as adults. They may accept the gender-sex disconnect more readily if allowed to dress and behave in ways consistent with their feelings and self-identity. Cloud, J. (2000, September 25). His Name Is Aurora. Time. pp. 90–91. What do you think of these accounts? How are we to rightly view these children (and later these adults)? [/quote]
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 06:28 PM

OK, I understand better now.
Interesting.
But, as you say, you are not studying psychology, or biology, or medicine, so I wonder how this fits into a Bible College course?
Posted By: tweetymom

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 07:39 PM

When I was working as a waitress, I had a regular customer who had gone through the whole process of going from being a man, to a woman. Her name was Amy. I will keep her last name out of this.

The first time she walked into the restaurant she was seen as a big, beautiful buxom (is that a word) woman. From every indication she was a woman with all the attributes of a woman. However when she spoke, it was with a mans voice! a deep booming mans voice.

She never came in alone. She was always with a couple other people, who were either gay or some other "different" thing going on. Not that has anything to do with this subject, just an observation, that I think had to do with it psychologically.

Anyway, she was very nice, and proceeded to tell me everything there was to tell, about her situation regarding this.

She had grown up thinking the same things that have been discussed here on children with this challenge. Her mother was behind her 100%, and when she was old enough she started the process of becoming a woman. It is a long process, as they are required to go through long psychological testing and counseling.

At some point, if they have decided that the person is well suited for the change, then they have to start taking their harmones. They have to take these for a while too, before the surgery, and then forever, after the procedure. They must live as a woman for a long time also. Eventually (if desired) they may have breast implants and possibly some other cosmetic procedures.

Then, when all concerned is satisfied that he/she is indeed, qualified, and he/she still feels the same way, they will do the surgery. She said, and I quote, "yes mam, they cut it right off, snip snip!" !! I asked her if she'd ever been sorry that she did that, and she said no, NEVER! She has sex, and has orgasms, (I don't see how, but I was too embarrassed to ask) and loves her life! She does have to take her harmones, to keep her beard growing down, and to help with her deep voice, but the voice will never be any more like a woman.

It was a trip when she came in the restaurant! Of course we all knew at some point, and she didn't mind. One of her favorite things to do was to flirt with guys, and and then at some point, tell them she used to be a man! Most of the men she would be flirting with, backed way off, embarrassed and insulted but it WAS funny!

I'm in a hurry so I'm not going to check this for typos, but I thought yall would enjoy this story!
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/15/10 08:39 PM

I have to admit that the first time I met a man who had become a woman ~ but still actually looked quite male ~ it was a real culture shock ~ and I know that it was for my colleagues, too.
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/16/10 01:24 AM

Originally Posted By: PDM
so I wonder how this fits into a Bible College course?


It's an elective. =P They offer a BA in psychology at the college and I'm close with the professor. So I decided to take the class with him to fit into my electives requirement.

Tweety!

I so enjoyed that story! Thanks for sharing! It was very informative and I think answered a lot of questions. I read during my studies most of what you said concerning the treatments and preparation before surgery is allowed, but the story helped to put it into a real human context.

So I'm guessing this is more than an environmental issue. It seems pretty clear to me that it has to be something neurologically or biologically. The textbook used strong words like "disgust" when in relation to their genitals but the lady saying "snip snip!" to removing the male genitals? That says it in a way like none other. They really are convinced that it simply DOES NOT belong there and that they are in the wrong body.

It's absolutely fascinating, and I think I am totally happy for people who - thanks to modern science - can be completely helped! I wonder in what situations psychology would consider it a disorder? Perhaps when they are too conflicted about it and can not come to a consensus about what they, themselves, think is "right?" I don't know. I'd have to ask Steve his opinion. =)

I wonder how a child would grow up if the parent was not behind him/her at all? What would happen if the child was raised to find this to be wrong, the lies of the devil, or something similar? Would the child move on and be able to be conditioned to be comfortable as they are? Or would they live their lives forever tormented and struggling?
Posted By: tweetymom

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/16/10 05:50 AM

I would be willing to bet that most parents would not be happy and supportive about it! Probably hide it in the closet, along with the "devil" and other such things.

When she said that, the snip snip thing, I was kind of shocked, since most men really love that part of themselves! And any men within hearing distance were shock too, and had pained looks on their faces! hahahaha!

Those children brought up like that, with the devil and fire and brimstone in the background, I think would have a hard time in life. I know we don't agree on a lot of things, but I think we agree on that!

I'm glad you enjoyed that story and I hope it helped you in your class.

One more funny thing about Amy. You know how guys always say what they would do if they were a girl? Well, she was quite the player, if you get my drift. She really loved being a woman.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/16/10 01:43 PM

I can only guess what some ultra conservative (religious) families and societies would do to people in this category.

I think that this is why I felt wary of a Bible college using them as a project. However, as long as the context is a supportive one, then I feel that this might be ok.

Many Christians, when talking about homosexuals, for example, will say that they love the person while hating 'the sin'.

I am wondering what the feeling is in this particular situation?
Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/17/10 10:23 PM

100% agree with you Tweety! smile It's nice to hear Amy enjoy being a woman. It warms my heart. Especially since it's a relatively new option for people. Think how many people must've been born with this "disorder" (for want of a better word!) and not have a choice. Now people can get comprehensive "help" with modern surgery, hormone treatments, and therapy. I think it's awesome!

Quote:
Many Christians, when talking about homosexuals, for example, will say that they love the person while hating 'the sin'.


Indeed. Which makes me sad. I used to be the same person. I recently had a talk with a friend i haven't seen in a while who is gay. We had a few drinks, and had an awesome "drunk religious talk" as we call it. The last time we had one, I was a Christian and spouted how I loved him but hated the sin that took a hold of him. We had the best conversation! He realized the changes I went through, even in the way I held myself when I sat, I just LOOKED different. I can't even put into words how awesome our chat was with my new outlook on life.

However, when it comes to this school I get mixed reactions. Christianity is a strange religion. The more you know about it, no exaggeration, the LESS you really know. Make a statement like 'Christians believe this' in a venue like this school? And you'll start a huge debate. They don't agree about anything, they honestly don't. Not even about Jesus, nothing. It confuses the hell out of me to be honest.

So to answer your question, totally different feelings and reactions. Some people think it's demonic influence upon people, some agree with the "patient"s opinion that they are actually born as the wrong gender, and the opinions go every where in between.

However! They all, in this class at least, seem to attach some religious reason to it. Many who are accepting of it call it a "generational curse." Something their ancestors did in ancient days that created this gene they now have. Others accept them, but think they need to be helped to accept the gender they were born in (genital wise I suppose? Since these people really don't think the genitals define their gender...).

I got into this huge argument, actually, with this lady who was judging a young person in their church because she didn't dress like a lady (no dresses, makeup, jewlery) but whom her daughter insisted was not lesbian nor gender confused. This woman apparently thought this girl was struggling with her gender because of the way she dressed and held herself. It's become a mess, really, and I keep getting preached at on how we need to guard the hearts of our young people and prevent spirits of perversion from affecting them... etc etc. *sigh*

So yeah, some people are frighteningly off the hook. But many fall into many different categories of opinions.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/17/10 10:33 PM

After seeing all the shades of Christianity on here, I am not at all surprised at the different ideas, opinions and beliefs that you encounter, Niki. smile
Posted By: BLR

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/19/10 11:41 PM

[quote=PDM]I remember reading about the subject of transgender when I was quite young. As far as I remember, while the baby is in the womb, it is sort of hermaphrodite and the sex organs can develop into male or female.[quote=PDM] Sex is determined at conception. Remember XY XX. There are hormone showers during fetal development that affect the fetus, but the actual sex is determined at conception. [quite=PDM]... we are talking about people whose bodies were not correctly formed to correspond with the child's gender. [/quote] With a transgender the genitalia is correctly formed and does correspond with the genetic sex of the person. What is not in sync is the social attitude of the transgender person. They feel that they are not the sex that their body and their genes indicate. Example - you can have a transgender homosexual person. A female that feels like a male, but is still sexually attracted to men. The male/female roll playing is what the transgender is uncomfortable with. Let’s take a female to male transgender. This is a female in all respects except they want to do guy things, want to open the door for women. Want to be the protector. Want to be a guy (this is very different from being a tom boy). [quote=PDM]I think that there is probably a 'sliding scale' where in some cases this becomes obvious while in others it will not be so obvious, and hormone treatment will be required to effect the sex change completely. [/quote] Hormone treatment is always required to effect the sex change. Remember that muscle mass, aggression, tougher skin (literally), whiskers and more body hair, and all the other things that make a male a male is hormones. All the things that make a female a female, nesting urges, caretaking etc are all hormone driven. Both males and females have both testosterone and estrogen. And example of how the hormones affect people is demonstrated in people as they age. In the male the testosterone levels drop and the female the estrogen levels drop. During their reproductive years the testosterone in males suppress the estrogen effects, and in females the estrogen suppresses the testosterone effects. As the hormone levels drop for the male this means that he tends to mellow out and become more of a caretaker (grandpa). And for the women their nesting urges etc seem to lessen (grandma taking on a whole new career, and having to pluck facial hair).
Posted By: tweetymom

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/20/10 04:34 AM

Re: seem to attach some religious reason to it: How in the world do they come to that conclusion?! That would be interesting to know.

And how does that work: generational curse?!

You are right about Christianity not agreeing. There are SO many Christian religions. it may be that over time and so many denominations that they got "diluted", does that make sense? (only a rhetorical question)

Posted By: Niki

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/21/10 07:41 PM

Quote:
How in the world do they come to that conclusion?!


You know, the whole hidden battle between good and evil, spiritual forces at work, Constantine and Neo saving the day...

Basiclally, they are gender confused because the Devil is lying to them. Or they're possessed by an evil spirit. Hence, religious reason as opposed to biological or genetical reason.

Quote:
generational curse?


It works like this:

They are descended from, let's say, the Amelekite family. Let's say the Bob of the Amelekite family did something to upset God, or sinned in some manner. From hence forward, their genetic codes are cursed by God. You see this many times in the Bible with generations being cursed with leprosy or something to that extent.

That's the general idea. The full logic of it, understandably, evades me.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/22/10 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: PDM
I remember reading about the subject of transgender when I was quite young. As far as I remember, while the baby is in the womb, it is sort of hermaphrodite and the sex organs can develop into male or female.

Originally Posted By: BLR
Sex is determined at conception. Remember XY XX. There are hormone showers during fetal development that affect the fetus, but the actual sex is determined at conception.

Yes, sorry, I didn't really explain what I meant very well. smile

Although the sex of the child is decided at conception, the sex organs are the same for both male and female babies during the first few weeks of pregnancy, so it is impossible to tell, by looking, whether it will be male or female.
http://www.baby2see.com/gender/external_genitals.html

For most babies, everything will have developed, correctly, well before they are born.

However, some babies are born with genitalia that are not correctly developed, so some babies can be assumed to be of the opposite gender to what they actually are ~ and registered and brought up accordingly. I don't know whether this is ever classed as GID.

This is a very obvious case of a mistake being made which can be sorted out, but which must be very confusing. It is purely physical, though. I'm not sure whether hormone treatment would be required for these people.

And, of course, there are people born, who are genuinely in male bodies, but, emotionally, they feel like females ~ and vice versa. They would definitely need hormone treatment, etc.

I feel, though, that this could be described as a sliding scale ~ people who look as if they belong to one gender but feel as if they belong to the other.
Posted By: tweetymom

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/22/10 04:28 AM

Ah ok I see that. I remember that from when I went to Sunday School. Thankfully, I wasn't affected by that. I guess many people are affected, their whole life. I'm assuming they still preach that. Yea. I remember it from my Granny's church. She was the Pentacost side of our family.

I also see the "generational curse" thing. Not to mean that I believe that. Just, I remember it again, from Sunday School.

Which, I might add, I did not raise my children to believe. I would not even tell them about such things. Shudder!

So back to the GID. No wonder there are people so messed up now days.

But there are things about this day and age that are awesome. The fact that these poor people can realize their dreams and go on to live a happy life in the body they believe to be right.
Posted By: Lisa Shea

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/25/10 01:56 AM

I think when you read the stories of adults, half of them were supported and half were very strongly dissuaded. So I don't think it's the parents causing this. I think the people simply are this way.
Posted By: star

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/25/10 04:14 AM

When I took a course in neurology and anatomy/ physiology I came out wondering how any of us are "normal", the systems are so complex. I can totally see how gender can come out different than the expected. And yes, what a wonderful time we live in that these miracles can now be expressed for real people.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 04/25/10 11:39 AM

Originally Posted By: star
.... I came out wondering how any of us are "normal", the systems are so complex. I can totally see how gender can come out different than the expected. ...

Yes, this is sort of how I feel.
Posted By: Lisa Shea

Re: Gender Identity Disorder - 05/14/10 11:44 PM

Part of the question is what *is* normal? It would be like saying what normal hair color is. It could be brown. But hair can be blonde, white, jet black, bright red, and all sorts of other colors. All of them are "normal" for that person.

You could say something is "average" - but it is also normal for someone to be "not average".
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