Lisa Shea

Must we pledge our allegiance?

Posted By: climbtreez

Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/19/06 11:27 PM

Im not sure if this applys to some to you but in my school every morning we have to say the pledge of allegiance. Well the other day I was kind of mad at the U.S. goverment so I didnt want to say the pledge. But because of that I got a detention. So my question is, do they have any right to do this? Like dont you think its a little authoritarian of them to say "You must support the country or you will be punished"
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/19/06 11:36 PM

No, you do not need to say the pledge of allegiance. You should call CNN and let them know. In the United States, you have the right to remain silent. You can not be forced to say anything. One of the wonderful things about the United States is that citizens have the right to protest the government peacefully - and what you did was one form of protest. I seriously would let some news outlets know - you did nothing wrong and good for you that you are learning to form opinions about the government and world events, no matter what your opinions are.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 03:12 AM

I wouldn't mind saying the pledge IF they took out the "Under God" part..Not all Americans believe in god. As americans I guess we should say the pledge of allegiance... but not everyday... My old high old in my first year made us sing the star spangled banner everyday.I mean really, how many times do i need to be reminded I am an american... I love my country but sometimes it ticks me off too. Like we are suppose to have freedom of religion... But do we really? Lately it seems they are trying to make everyone have the morals they wants... I believe if YOUR religion make you a good person and you are not hurting your self and anyone else... Well then GO FOR IT...
Posted By: WitchCatXeen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 04:30 AM

I really don't like saying it. I had to say it every morning at elementry school, and at special school things after that. Even now (I'm almost 25), I never say it. I don't put my hand over my heart or take off my hat, sometimes I don't even stand. People thing it's disrespecful for me to do it, but why should I? I would be disrespecting myself if I went along with it though I don't believe in any of it.

I did kind of fake it for awhile though... I was in a club called Kiwanis for about a year. They did the pledge every morning and that's when I just faked it, because I didn't want to start any trouble.

The pledge is a big issue, especially in schools. There are Christian parents who insist it should be done, and there are pagan/witches/etc like me who say... don't force them to do it! Don't punish them!

Let's face it, America is not all that great, and God is a personal choice. I feel like America forces us as kids to "support" America and worship God to more or less brainwash into thinking a certain way. I don’t think it’s right at all.

I also don’t think it’s right, morally, to pledge yourself to something as silly as a country. What about the whole –world- for crying out loud?? It’s just so biased!

There is a pledge I do like, however. It’s a pledge to the earth and all the creatures on it. I forget how it goes off hand, and I’m trying to find it on Google, but to no avil. If this was my world and I could set the rules, I would introduce the Earth Pledge to everyone. Then they can say it or not, no biggie.

And I agree with Victor, you should tell someone about it. I don’t think it’ll get you anywhere, and it may be more trouble than it’s worth because people don’t really listen to kids, it seems.
Posted By: tuxedogirl

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 06:22 PM

The way I see it- you shouldn't have to say it but you should at least stand. I imagine it like being at a funeral- if they want you to bow your head and pray you at least bow your head our of respect. While our government really eats it sometimes, it's still *our* government. So, saying it, as far as I'm concerned, is an option, and standing is something that you should do.
Do you go to a private school? And you might check in your school rules. I don't know about your school but in my high school we had a set of rules that everyone needed to sign and if you had a conflict with any of them (the pledge was in there) you spoke with admin about it. If you signed it and broke any of the rules it was an automatic 2 days of in house- no fun. If no such rule exists though I would for sure tell someone about that.
Good luck.
Posted By: findingcherry

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 07:43 PM

good lord!!! they make you say that silly propaganda still??? in this day and age? really i thought we had outgrown that foolishness. yeah i really never enjoyed that it seemed creepy, and very brainwashing. and if it's a pledge then why do you have to say it every day. the once should be enough!don't get me started. i'm just killing time until my bird gets sick of sitting on the laptop.
Posted By: Carlyn

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 07:52 PM

i believe they should stop with the pledge cuz people at my high school they dont really care about it...when we do the pledge we just stand up and put our right hand over our chest and we just stand there, i think its just a wait of time, especially in high school
Posted By: I Love Gus & Milo

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 08:30 PM

Well... there has been some intersting points here... but to the oridgnal question. You say you got detention.... now I will try to be fair here, but did you get detention becasue you wouldn't say it, or did you mouth off at the teacher when they confronted you? Not that it is fair eitherway, but I can see you getting detention if the teacher thought that you were challangeing them in front of the class. In this day and age, respect for teachers has become low and they might have been trying to prove a point to the class of what happens when you do not adhere to the rules of the classroom.

Also, do you go to private school??? Private schools have rules, and it may be in the charter that the pledge is to be said. Kinda like wearing uniforms, no swearing, ect. If you do go to a private school, and it IS a rule there that the pledge is to be said, than you acn't do anything about it. They see it as "break a rule get detention" no matter which rule was broken. Most of my friends growing up went to private school so I got to hear most of the rules.

Also, some public schools have OLD charters, and you may be in one of them. the OLD rule books may state that you HAVE to say it. Not fair in this day and age, but Iw ould check all the facts before you try to state your case, wether it be infront of your teacher, or CNN. Better to be well informed, than to be embarrsed if it was acctally part of a old rule book.

It may be best to ask your teacher why you got detention. If the answer is the plegde, than go from there. If they say it was becasue you were"hostle to the admistration" you may not be able to do anythign about that. So if it ahppens again, think of what Martin Luther King Jr. said. "Reply with peace, and love, so that no man may accuse you of wrong doings or hostility"

And I agree with Tux Girl. Standing is a sign of respect. Just like saying prayer if you are at dinner or a church. It is not that you are professing acceptance of the beliefs, but you are showing the people around you that you respect thier beliefs. And in turn, THEY shoudl not not hassle you for not chanting the pledge, (or prayer, or song or whatever) becasue it is YOUR belief. We just need to remember that just becasue we do not always have the same beliefs as the people aroudn us, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't show them that we are kind, respectful people who will "when in rome, do as the romans do".

I do not not want to start a war here, but I think that people sometimes need to take it easy when "traditions" are done. Prayer are said, Songs are song, Pledges are made.... and we as rational, and understanding people should show proper respect to the people who partake of them, and ask people in return to accept OUR tradations of choosing NOT to Pray, Sing or pledge.
If we are all nice about it, there would be less problems. It is like when your mom yells at you about somthing. If you show respect and answer her in a kind tone, you are FAR more likley to work things out than you are if you were to shout back and say somthing rude or act defensive....

anyway... just my thoughts smile
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/20/06 09:08 PM

Well I talked to her and she apoligized about it. I explained about my religion and my views to the goverment and she was really sorry about it. Though I still had to do the detention (it was yesterday) she said that she just thought I was being disrespectful

And know I dont go to a private school. I go to a regular run of the mill public.

And to awnser gus's question, I didnt mouth of or anything I just didn't stand up. I just continued to do my homework.
Posted By: I Love Gus & Milo

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/21/06 01:44 AM

Good for you! I am glad that the teacher understood, and that you took the high road and was respectful to her. smile I used to teach kids, and most of the time they were rude and disresepctful if they were asked to do somthing that they didn't want to do. At least by your example she will probably be more understanding of your beliefs in the future smile

I applod your taking a stand (or not stand) on your beliefs and not letting other sway you by threats of punishments, and also handling your self in a adult like manner (which is more than some adults can do)

PS what kinda tree are your keets in?? My keets like green leafy things, and may wanna give a keet-tree a spin smile
Posted By: tuxedogirl

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/21/06 02:04 AM

like Gus & Milo said- good call on not being disrespectful. I had in house every other week because of my mouth. Now that I'm student teaching I want to go apologize to my teachers (except for senior english, he deserved it). So kudos to you on that one.
Just out of curiosity, what is your religion?
I Love Gus & Milo- I just noticed- were you previously I Love Gus? (I wa here for a bit and then was gone for a bit, so I'm a bit out of the loop).
Posted By: snow hen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/21/06 03:17 AM

I went to school in a small town. If you didn't say the pledge there, pretty much everyone would rip on you, including the teachers. This country IMO is set up as a facist nationalism, kinda like nazis. I doubt that any teachers would let it go. They are part of the institution, and they probly just figure this will breed some dissent in other areas. And they can't have that. IMO
Posted By: cutie bears

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/21/06 09:24 PM

YES, TELL IT LIKE IT IS SNOW HEN!! i hate gov't in general and though i am catholic, there are many things about the catholic church that i dissaprove in personally. i agree, detention has gone too far. during the pledge, i stand up, and i don't even hold my hand to my chest. i stand there. but i don't pledge myself to something i don't agree with in the least.
Posted By: I Love Gus & Milo

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 03:29 PM

Tux Girl- Yes I was I love Gus, but we got Milo on New years day, and so I am now "I love Gus and Milo" laugh
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 05:13 PM

I DO think we should say it. America has gotten very very lazy! It discusts me. It does not waste time. It only takes about 15 seconds! I think it is good to support your country and government, even God. If you are upset with the government, forgiveness is always good. You have a right to "remain silent", yes. But if we didn't have our government, what would we be like!!? And we take things for granted. Americans live in the wealthiest country in the whole entire world. There are people who live in poverty and can't even get enough to eat for a day! And we stuff ourselves even after we are full. And to think we would complain about something that's good and takes only 15 seconds of our time. If you think that 15 seconds is horror, consider people who live in horror their whole lives.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 06:02 PM

I say for all those that think this country is so bad, and the pledge a waste of time and what America stands for should not be honored, LEAVE. Noone is keeping you here against your will, that is one of the priveldges of this country, the freedom to come and go as you please. I agree and if this is the attitude that is being taught/got in the PUBLIC school system then this country is headed for real problems as/when you grow up. I know how the country was BEFORE prayer was removed from the schools and the Pledge/Star Spangled Banner were eliminated and I see on the news everyday how it is now. Go to Cuba, Russia, or how about Irag? If you were not born and raised in the land of plenty your attitude would be very different.
Posted By: cutie bears

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 06:10 PM

homi-charlie-skittles-kiki----

what you stated are one of the reasons that i dislike about this country. no, i don't hate living here, but i think that it could use a lot of changes. i go to a catholic school and i pray the prayer every morning and afternoon and even the "character education pledge(LAME)" that our school made up, but i do not say the pledge. it is my personal choice.
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 10:42 PM

I like this discussion because I like to hear what our nation's young people are thinking. The most impressive thing to me is that they really ARE thinking. Just to have an opinion about what you do or do not like about your government is so much better than standing up and saying the pledge without giving it any thought at all.

For me, one of the great things about this country is that we are free to say the pledge or not say it. If we "had" to say the pledge - then we would be a little less free and a little closer to a militant marxist society. Do you think the people of the former soviet union or cuba have a choice about these matters? No they don't -
so i ask, is that the direction that we should go? Should we all be forced to say "The Pledge" - or should we all just try to make our country a better place, so that everyone genuinely WANTS to say it.
And just because people don't WANT to say the pledge doesn't mean they should just leave. This country is big enough for many view points. What if the pledge bothers you because you don't believe in God. Should you just leave?
Or what if you don't like the idea of pledging loyalty to a flag - if it contradicts your religion - Should you leave too?
I find the discussion from the teenage perspective just wonderful, and I only wish teens had more of a voice in these types of issues. To the people who want to MAKE people say the pledge - is that what you really want - to force people to say something even if it carries no meaning to them or they just downright disagree? Wouldn't it be better to get people involved in their country, community and government - so that they feel a part of it and WANT to say it? Or should we just mak'em say it or get out or go to jail?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/22/06 11:33 PM

I firmly believe in the freedom of choice and the right to freedom,liberty and the persuit of happiness. I get riled when I hear "the country" is ....... Who makes up the country? We do. It is not the government that is America, it is the people that live here, Americans and non-Americans that makes this country what it is, good or bad. I love America and the American way of life. I love the fact that I can work and own property. Children (male and female) are entitled to and receive an education. I am very thinkful to the forefathers of this country and the vision they had for a free society. No, one should not be forced to salute the flag or pray to a God they do not have, But I do feel loyalty is owed to the country that allows me to live free and all those that give/gave their lives for that freedom. Do they teach Civics anymore? It was one of my favorite subjects.
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 12:10 AM

I don't see it as "forcing". I think it should be done. Unless you want to move out of the country because you don't want to say that pledge. Don't think of it as a chore, think of it as an opportunity to reconize America as a good country. There are a LOT of things you HAVE to do in life [like this]. Be supportive and do this for me, and for Our Country, America.

There are only 31 words to say for crying out loud!!!
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 12:17 AM

I agree with many of those points, but I do not think the issue is black and white.
I love many things about our country, but I do not love other things about our country.
Lately, there are more and more things that I do not like about our country. For instance:
1. We are holding hundreds of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay without specific charges, without representation,and it is not even clear that the entire list of prisoners has been made public. Those prisoners have not had any contact with the outside world in over 2 years- not even their spouses, children or parents.
2. We invaded a sovereign nation based on dubious information at best. Subsequently we have destablized the entire Middle East, caused thousands of civillian deaths, and have made Iraq the breeding grounds for future terrorists for years to come.
3. We have alienated most of our allies - Sovereign countries who happened to hold a different point of view - we looked at them with disdain and did things so childish as to change the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries in the US Senate Dining Hall.
4. In this country, We prohibit 2 individuals from making a lifelong monogamous commitment to each other and prevent them from enjoying all the rights and benefits of marriage - simply because they are homosexual rather than heterosexual.
5. We forbid terminally ill cancer patients and AIDS patients from smoking marijuana even if it relieves their sufferring.
6. We are the only industrialized nation NOT to sign the Kyoto treaty, and we are the only country whose leaders defy science by saying that global warming is not a problem.
7. We are the only industrialized nation not to have a government sponsored health care system that guarantees health care for all.

I could go on - and I am sure others have some issues of their own. I can love the benefits I have reaped from this country, yet be outraged at things I find worthy of outrage. If my form of protest is to not say the pledge, so be it. It is peaceful and it is my right, and it makes me no less a patriot. Alternatively, I could stick my head in the sand and say, yes there are these unpleasantries, but the country has been good to me .....
well, if that's the tact we all take, what a sad place this will be
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 01:53 AM

Im really sorry I havent posted in a whille. I have a lot going on.

Its not that I hate the country or the freedom or any thing, its just that Im extreamly ticked off at the goverment. For not pulling the troops, for not sacking Cheny, for making such a big deal out of the bird flu, for not helping enough during Katrina, for riging the elections, for sacking Clinton, for not sacking Bush, and for electing Bush in the first place.

Some ones question was what my religion is. Im not entirly sure right now, Im currently serching for the one that for me, but Im sure Im not christian. I m a babtised christian but latley Ive relized that its really not for me.

Victor- I have a lot of other really strong opinions but Im not sure if people will be happy about the topics on these forums.

Animom- They might teach civics in other schools in my disctict but not in mine.

Ilove Gus- The tree my birds are sitting on is a key lime tree. We've had it in my family for a whille.
Posted By: pretty bird

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 03:34 AM

I agree with Homi maybe America doesn't have the best government in the world but I'd rather be living under this government than any other one that is around. There are a lot worse than ours at least we have the freedom to do or not to do something so long as it does not hurt others. There are plenty of other places in the world where people do not have that freedom think about it. Its always easy to criticize its funny also that so many people tear down our government but when it comes time to vote they are no where around.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 12:31 PM

the fact that we can sit here and discuss this in a public forum without fear of proscecution is really what America is all about. The government is elected by the people, for change people have to get out vote and get involved in the lawmaking process. The government is made of people, with all their human failings. Maybe it's time to turn over the process to computers. I agree TOO MUCH focus/money is put on how other countries are run and do not agree that everyplace should be as the USA is. We as a country/government spend too much time poking around in other countries business. I truely believe Iraq is Bush's present to his daddy. Sr. Bush could not out Housain so Jr saw the chance to do it for him. I lived through Vietnam form beginning to end and I feel iraq is a repeat. Amercia as countries go is very young and we make mistakes and sometimes our ideals are too lofty, but as with everythng else we learn from out mistakes. I was involved in NORML for many years. Laws are made for the whole and because pot is so easy to grow and there is no way the govt can regulate it for tax purposes it will never be legal. As for socialized medicine. 1 and the biggest is the country is too large and the immagration policy makes it impossible, PLus in countries where it is, extreme care stops at age 65, you are given pallative care period. every year Canadians flock to FL to get medical care they can not get in Canada. With all it's bumps, failings and pimples, it's my country and I love it and would not want to live anywhere else
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 03:01 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Animom:
the fact that we can sit here and discuss this in a public forum without fear of proscecution is really what America is all about.
Well I suggest you review the patriot act - because as of today, we do not live without fear of persecution. What we read on the internet, write on the internet, what we read in the library - are all subject to review by the US government and CAN and WILL be used against us.

Yes, the USA has changed since I was a child. We used to be a country that was admired world wide. Now we are a country that is either despised or disliked world wide. Anybody who uses the tired old argument "They hate us because we are free" - has got to get a life, do some reading, and try to understand why we are so ill perceived. We were free 50 years ago and the world embraced us. Now we are an island to ourselves. Instead of being seen as protectors, we are seen as bullies. Instead of being seen as a role model, we are seen as hypocrites (which country has the most "WMDs" - US!) Instead of being seen as environmentally conscious, we are seen as gluttons - just look at the size of our SUVs, our obesity epidemic, our oil consumption. Do we really care about any country but our own? Not if it does not involve oil. There is genocide in Africa - have we stepped in to help? We are a society of Me First, and we are beginning to reap the consequences. I have no doubts why we are hated and it is NOT because "we are free". Our number of enemies has grown, and our allies are luke warm at best. The past few years have proven that even the high and mighty USA will not win if we choose to "go it alone".

And for those of you who say, if you don't like it just leave - I must reply: I was raised to stand up for what I believe in, not to run away from it. I would rather try to do my part to set the country right, rather than to give up trying and move to another country. And for those who say that "we should not complain" just because many aspects of the US are good - I can only throw up my arms and say thank God somebody complained about slavery, segregation, women's rights, etc, etc. There are leaders and there are followers - leaders do not sit back and keep their mouths shut.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 03:31 PM

My true feelings are it is not this country or any other, it's the human race as a whole. We don't have any thought of anything that does not affect us on a personal level, then when it does we get on oursoap box and rant about the injustice of it all. I live close the southern most part of the everglades, and the constant battle to keep development out. There is no ground room to build out, so apts and townhouses are going up quicker then.... It's all about $$$, all of it. Has any body seen American Dreams yet?
Posted By: snowandcookie4ever

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 04:02 PM

No, we should not be forced to pledge ourselves to something we dont think is right. everything in america now revolves around money! money and destruction of animal habitat.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/23/06 04:34 PM

and if you watch Jeff Corwin you see how the destruction of habitat is worldwide, not just USA. The time is coming where the only wild animals will be in zoos. As each animal becomes extinct mankind becomes closer to reaching its own extinction.
Posted By: WitchCatXeen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/24/06 09:30 PM

I just wanted to drop a note here to let everyone know that the USA isn't as great as it used to be. I am thankful for the rights we do have, but they are being taken away, slowly, but surely. And I honestly don't know what my rights are anymore... there is freedom of speech, but that seems to be limited.

I would love to go to another country, like Canada maybe, but really, what would that solve?

Climbtreez, anyway, I'm glad it worked out at your school. Maybe next time your teacher will understand where you're coming from. I've noticed that there is a huge lack of proper communication between people these days, and a lot of problems can be solved by just stopping to talk about it. Sometimes you have to come back later to talk about it because hurtful things can be said in the heat of the moment, but communication is KEY smile

And thanks for letting us know about the key lime tree... I'd love to find one of those for Vash to park his butt on but I'd worry about him nibbling on it.
Posted By: snow hen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/25/06 09:06 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Homi-Charlie-Skittles-Kiki:
America has gotten very very lazy!
I completely agree with this statement. There are so many good people in america, but at the same time there are so may more of the most ignorant, greedy, self-serving, hypocrits.

9/11 didn't start this downward spiral as many would have you believe. Look at the history of this country. For its age, it has had one of the most violent historys of any country. American's are so preoccupied with brain-deadening entertainment that they cannot see the world for what it is. IMO the "god" in the pledge is more like money is god.

I myself was raised to be an ignorant. We were mormons lol. It is, indeed, a very difficult journey to find your way through the bs of todays culture, but unless more people decide to go this route, I see a very bleak future.

I could rant all day about this stuff, though, and never wake anyone up. IMO, by probly 30, most people are set in their ways.

I say don't make a politial statment by not saying the pledge, b/c in that sorta environment it really won't get you anywhere. :rolleyes:
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/25/06 10:04 AM

you have all the rights guaranteed in the Constitution/Bill of Rights. I once read "In America You have the freedom to do what's right" people who are doing "what's right" don't worry about losing their rights.
Posted By: Taru's_Mom

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 04/28/06 01:14 AM

I am not american so I cant say anything about the allegience, but I know that I did grow up in the cathlalic school system, I am not cathalic. now one of the things required was that we say the hail mary, I am not cathalic, I could not care less about mary, I do not worship her and I never will, why the heck should I pray to her? my brother and I got in trouble when we were little for refusing to pray to mary, we told our parents and they actually confronted the school and told them that they are not to force us to say the hail mary or participate in things such as ash wendsday, communion etc.. after that the teachers left us alone, I remember often sitting to the side with my brother when the entire school participated in such nonsence. we always had to stand during the prayers, I stood..for the anthum, during the prayers I just stood there and rolled my eyes lol

in high school I went to a private international lutheran school, however because its international and half the students are of other cultures, a teacher could get fired for showing any bias toward a certain religion or culture.
Posted By: pretty_bird22

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 05:36 AM

well, i don't think that it is right that they gave you a detention. my school pledges too, but luckily, my first period teacher doesn't care if you don't pledge.

i also think it is wrong to make mexicans or other immigrants say the pledge because they are pledging to a country that they may or may not want to be in or respect.
Posted By: Kiwi x3 Peeps

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 01:58 PM

I'm so used to it because I say it every morning and I did in elementary school and I will once I get to high school in a few years. I don't mind it. I would hate having to sing the star spangled banner, though. I can't sing and there are only a few that can. Also, if we don't want to say it, we don't have to. We have to stand but we can stand silently. Do you have a moment of silence every day? I forgot to read the second page so I don't know if somebody said that yet. My princapal(sp?) makes us have like a minute or 2 of silence every day. It gets so boring. :rolleyes:
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 09:01 PM

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

Are we "SLOW LEARNERS" or what?

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1919
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 10:16 PM

i politely say that is rubbish.
What country besides the US says that an individual must renounce his old country in order to become a citizen of the US. That is basically what one must do to become a US citizen. Anybody who has been through this process first hand, or perhaps married to somebody who has, will tell you its not that easy to just "renounce" your old country where you may have spent the first 20-30 years of your life. Many industrialized nations allow duel citizenship or have other provisions for staying. The fact that Americans think it is no big deal just to renounce your whole heritage for the sake of moving here perhaps for a better job just goes to show you why the rest of the world hates America. Arrogance. Egocentrism. Most Americans can't even see an other point of view on this and probably don't even understand why this would enrage those who are trying to live here but not disown all that has made them who they are. How would Americans feel if they went to France to perhaps take a special job or be with their soul mate, only to have to give up US citizenship, renounce the flag, and be forbidden to express or enjoy American traditions in public. Just because people want to come here for personal or economic reasons does not mean they HAVE to suddenly change their whole belief system. Not everybody wants to become a US citizen by the way either. There are plenty of legal people here with Green Cards who have no interest in becoming a US citizen - and I don't blame them. The viewpoint stated by theodore roosevelt in the above passage is so provincial and simplistic that I find it down right trite. Leave it to the USA to have an "us or them" mentality - again, is it any mystery why we are hated? Does any country actually like us right now? That alone should give us pause ... we used to be the good guys.

What is funniest to me about this whole discussion is that the adults of this country are having huge debates trying to make the reciting of the Pledge required - whereas it seems most students have to say it anyway but could care less and find it a waste of time. Adults should spend more time trying to find out why students think so little of the Pledge rather than just stuffing it down their throats - oh but that is the American way.
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 11:25 PM

I am currently applying for canadian citicen ship since Im 50% canadian but I dont know if that means that I have to give up my american citisen ship. I really hope I can keep it. Luckly though my american citicen ship was easy to get since I was born here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/06/06 11:35 PM

I guess the difference is in being an American and being patriotic. I agree the time and energy should be addressing why the youth of today feel so disconnected to their country and not "forcing" them to love it. I wonder if they could even tell you. I do not know how it is to live in the rest of the US, only FL, this is where I have spent most of my life. My grief is not with the Government. I stay out of it. Mine is with the American way of life and how difficult it can be living in my own country. I do not think people should have to renounce their birth country, but I don't think they should come here and create that country here. Miami is full of little "countries" where everyone speaks another language.
Posted By: chirpy

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 12:04 AM

America is a big melting pot consisting of a beautiful mosaic of people of many creed and nationalities. I was an immigrant and became a citizen many years ago.

I love America not only because it gives me an opportunity to advance in society as long as I work hard and study hard, I am also proud to be an American because it provides me with freedom and liberty as long as I abide by the laws.

In the past few years, however, America has been perceived (perhaps rightfully so) by many people as an evil nation bent on bullying other developing countries if they don't believe in what WE think is right or proper. "Spreading democracy" should not be used as a pretense or a euphemism to invade another sovereign nation unless that nation is doing harm to us. It is unfortunate how just in a few years our country's image has been irreparably damaged because of the radical idealogy of a few!

Nonetheless, I still love this country because it is now my home, and I am comforted by the fact that I can speak freely and civilfully without fear of being sanctioned for my thoughts and words.
Posted By: paula k

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 12:06 AM

Jehovah wittnesses do not say the pledge because they give their allegience to god not to a man-made government. They abide by man made laws because they are peaceful but they give their loyalties to god. I have family that is that religion so I know alot about it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 12:12 AM

How are you doing?
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 01:42 AM

I am a US citizen but my spouse is a Green card holder. Our children have dual citizenship only because my children were born in the US. Thus they received US citizenship first and the Dutch will grant them dual citizenship. Had my children received Dutch citizenship first, they would have had to given up that citizenship to become American citizens. It is an example of how other countries are much more lenient and reasonable than the US which wants things their way or no way. Don't get me wrong - I am not USA "hater", but I no longer feel proud to be an American. Having married a European, I am much more aware of a global perspective, and I don't blame smaller countries for feeling that we are a bunch of school yard bullies. We won't even let Americans be tried in an international court of law. It makes us look like we think we are above the law. Its a shame, really. I honestly remember a time when I felt so proud to be an American. I agree with Chirpy - The last country that went around invading other nations to impose their "way of life" was Nazi Germany. Is this not similar?
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 06:48 PM

Quote
Originally posted by climbtreez:


... that Im extreamly ticked off at the goverment...

for making such a big deal out of the bird flu, ...
for sacking Clinton, for not sacking Bush, and for electing Bush in the first place.


It's not just the government that is making such a big deal about the flu... it IS serious and the news reporters and others are "making a big deal about it." The government doesn't elect or sack the presidents. WE DO! I am so glad that there are the majority of people out there that elected Bush. I am still wondering why the people that STILL support Bush are the only ones who don't shout it out there.
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 07:10 PM

My prediction:
President Bush will go down in history as the "least intelligent" president ever. He is living proof that anybody can grow up and be president if you are born into the right family.


**Edited to dis-offend those of you who wilt at the word "dumb"
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/07/06 07:34 PM

That is only your prediction. Go on, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I'll be sure to report you.
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 12:59 AM

Look at what you just wrote Homi
What a hateful thing to say.
Then look at your signature quote.
Perhaps you should take your own advice.

The very fact that the forum administrator had to come in and block out what you wrote should really make you pause. Up until then, the rest of us were having a passionate but thoughtful and respectful discourse about a variety of government related topics. We can have different viewpoints and still be respectful. At least, 99% of us can, apparently.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 01:19 AM

This is an interesting topic.

I thought that others might wish to comment, in the general section, so I have started a new thread.

You may wish to know that the thread is here:

http://www.wineintro.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000343
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 01:25 AM

Homi- The bird flu isnt as big of a deal as they say. It was The Goverment who said that incase of a bird flu out break seal all cracks and vents leading to outside. If we did this we would run out of air and be dead.

Also, in the 2000 elections we didnt elect Bush. In reality Gore got the majority of the votes. Bush's brother rigged the elections in florida to make it so Bush won.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 09:22 AM

Quote
Originally posted by victor:
My prediction:
President Bush will go down in history as the dumbest president ever. He is living proof that anybody can grow up and be president if you are born into the right family.
I have heard many criticisms of President Bush, but some people might find your thoughts offensive, so perhaps you could explain & expand:

Why do you describe the President of the USA thus?
What do you mean by it?
What is your evidence?
Posted By: PDM

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 09:31 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Homi-Charlie-Skittles-Kiki:
That is only your prediction. Go on, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I'll be sure to report you.
Please think very carefully about the words that you are using, before posting a comment.

Thank you.
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 10:11 PM

PDM: If you want me to delete that post, I will. I really fail to see how it is offensive to the forum - I'm sure Bush has heard much worse, but perhaps I have a thicker skin than others. I will be happy to elaborate.

First - the president is the worst public speaker I have ever heard in a position of power.
Example: Nucular. (FYI its "nuclear", Mr. President).
Second: Just listen to his press conferences (a rare occurence, I know). He speaks at about an 8th grade level (my apologies to the 8th graders reading this). I once read a political cartoon saying, "We need somebody who can articulate our view point on the war on terror to the American people. Quick, get Tony Blair over here."

Aside from his borderline illiteracy, what about some of his down right thoughtless comments.
Example:
1. To the terrorists: "Bring it on."

And even if you called all that nit-picky, which I might agree with you, what really gets me is his lack of vision for the future. I seriously think he may have just ruined the world - and that depresses me. If i didn't have kids, I might not be quite so depressed, but I think Bush has really screwed the future of this planet, which my children will have to endure. And that makes me mad. (Homi, note, that I have no plans to shoot W., despite what you may write).
But why do I think he has ruined the future, well let me count the ways:
1. War in Iraq: He just totally destablized a region that was previously, albeit tenuously, stable. When the nuclear bombs go off in the middle east, you can bet it had something to do with the US's invasion of Iraq.
2. Future terrorists: For every Iraqi father/son/wife/child/ we just killed over there, you can bet they have about 10 relatives getting ready to terrorize the US.
3. Energy consumption: Sure, W., Lets just drill all wildlife refuges. There is no green house effect, anyway, right? Is there anybody besides W., Cheney, and Ken Lay that question global warming?
4. Infringement on personal freedoms: Unauthorized wire tapping. Or seeing what I've been googling.
5. Invasion of privacy: Challenging oregon's Death with Dignity Act, Challenging Terry Schiavo's husband, Prohibiting the use of extra IVF embryos for stem cell research (even if they are just going to get tossed anyway), preventing 2 individuals in love from getting married because they are both men or both women. George - don't you have ANYTHING better to do than to meddle in everybody else's lives?

So yes - for W's inability to think through these issues and think through the long term ramifications - I think he is a moron. That is my opinion, and up until a few years ago, I was free to say that. Now apparently, that has come into question, so I can pretty much say the times have changed already.

And for those of you who want to try to make me feel bad by saying NOT NICE things about me personally - go ahead. Especially when you write scripture as your signature. Because that leads me to my final criticism of the president, and perhaps this is a different topic. Bush loves to play the religion card - and people are willing to overlook the killing of thousands YES THOUSANDS of innocent people - in the name of religious certainty - and yes I do have an issue with that.

So when I say Bush is THE DUMBEST PRESIDENT - I say it not just for his questionable communication skills, but for his absolute lack of forethought about the long term implications of his decisions. And my children will pay the price.
Posted By: WitchCatXeen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/08/06 11:29 PM

Victor, may I also add something?

Bush has to be the most immature person I've ever seen. I've seen a couple video clips of him flipping off cameras, and in one, he giggled about it like a 13 year old boy might react.
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 01:42 AM

I really have to say though. He is much worse than an 8th grade speaker. Im in a 7th grade gifted class which is the aquivilent of an 8th grade class. Every one in my class has presented a speech in the past week and I have to say, there were some really bad ones but none as bad as Bush.

I just love the quotes that he has said.

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
Posted By: WitchCatXeen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 01:54 AM

Climbtreez, looks like you've been to as many Bushism sites as I have smile
Posted By: Jenny_Leigh

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 02:05 AM

i havent been here in a while, but i'd like to say a couple things. i am not going to argue because in politics most people wont listen. they stick to their side, argue for it and it goes no where. such as this thread. but,
1.
Quote
Originally posted by WitchCatXeen:
Victor, may I also add something?

Bush has to be the most immature person I've ever seen. I've seen a couple video clips of him flipping off cameras, and in one, he giggled about it like a 13 year old boy might react.
your gonna tell me you have NEVER laughed like a 13-year-old? i dont agree with the flipping off but no one is perfect right?

Quote
Originally posted by victor

First - the president is the worst public speaker I have ever heard in a position of power.
Example: Nucular. (FYI its "nuclear", Mr. President).
[/QB]
hey, people say what they say. are you gonna tell me every word you say at all times is exactly the pronunciation in the dictionary?

we live in a good country, with its faults, what country is perfect though? oh yeah, about the pledge, some countries arent allowed to do such things, so why no grasp the opportunity? i have many more points on which i concur and dont. please excuse all the mistakes in my typing i was rushed.
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 02:07 AM

Climbtreez - sorry about the 8th grade reference. Yes, I can see how that would be offensive to you - I just have forgotten what students can do at certain grades. But you see my point - I find him physically painful to watch. I literally feel pain.

And WitchCat, I am just glad to hear there are others who can share my point of view, or can at least appreciate why I might feel this way. I can respect a variety of view points - and I believe that a diversity of views will make us richer as a whole - but my experience in life is that alot of the most hateful things I read come from the people who portray themselves as holier than thou.

And Jenny - I think we posted simultanously so I will edit this - I respect your view points and welcome opposing views. PDM asked me to explicitly clarify why I think W. is dumb, so I tried to give some examples off the top of my head. If you took the time to read the rest of my post, you would see that I acknowledged that those grammatical points can be considered nit-picky - so I am not disagreeing. However if you continued to read my post, you would see my larger complaint with him is his lack of vision and the peril that he has created for the entire world. As far as his grammatical issues, I could overlook them if I thought he was a brilliant thinker. But he is not a brilliant thinker - even most republicans will tell you that.
Posted By: WitchCatXeen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 02:30 AM

Quote
your gonna tell me you have NEVER laughed like a 13-year-old? i dont agree with the flipping off but no one is perfect right?
I laughed like a 13 year old when I was a 13 year old. And I'm not someone who is responsible for representing a whole country. The day that the description of President of the United States involves being immature is the day I'll start support his efforts.
Posted By: PDM

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/09/06 07:48 PM

Quote
Originally posted by victor:
PDM: If you want me to delete that post, I will. I really fail to see how it is offensive to the forum - I'm sure Bush has heard much worse, but perhaps I have a thicker skin than others. I will be happy to elaborate.

....
If it had been necessary to delete it, I would have done so. smile Personally, I think it is fine to criticise politicians - after all, they put themselves up for inspection & criticism - but I suppose it is only fair to explain why you would wish to do so. Also, it makes it clearer to others just exactly what you mean.

(I did actually receive a complaint from someone who was offended.).
Posted By: Jenny_Leigh

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/10/06 01:07 AM

i try to look at everything yall posted but there is a lot of different views. i agree with some and i dont agree with others. i am pretty young and though i try hard, there are still things i really couldnt possibly understand.

victor- i can understand about you just getting the first idea you could think of. dumb can be a very harsh word in some peoples eyes. also, i am an 8th grader. i guess i can understand you using that as a reference so i am not offended.

witchcatxeen- so the day you hit 14 you havent done a couple things immature? you're right though if you are gonna be in front of the public eye maybe you should make a couple better choices.
Posted By: pretty bird

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/10/06 03:27 AM

For those of you that hate our country you don't know how good you have it Most countries you wouldn't even have a choice. Some countries if your a woman or child you are considered property and have no rights at all there are other countries that if you express your opinion you could end up in jail for the rest of your life and their jails are nothing like the jails is the US. Do some research on some foreign countries and you will be suprized at how good we have it in the United States.
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/10/06 09:28 PM

Oh dont give me that pretty bird. Ive said in my previous posts if you read them. I like my country, I never said I didnt, I just hate our goverment and Bush. They do every thing half *** and and ignorantly. You cannot denie that the plan for the bird flu was a horrible idea.

And what are you talking about? Most countries dont have free speech and have women considerd property!? That's not true. For every country that you say has that kind of dictatorship I can tell you 20 more that have democracys or free speech.
And besides, even here some mean consider their women property.


Its people like you who are resticting freespeech by making others feel guilty
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/11/06 12:01 AM

I'm with you climbtreez.
I don't think anywhere did I say I hate my country. I didn't even say I hate Bush (even though I do have no respect for him), and contrary to what Homi says, I had no plans to xxxxxxxxxxx either.
And just because some things in the US are good does not mean ALL things are good. And just because some things are good does not mean that we shouldn't stand up against the things that are NOT good.
Should MLK Jr not have spoken out about racism just because other aspects of the US are good?
Should Rosa Parks just gone to the back of the bus where she was supposed to go anyways?
Should I keep my mouth shut about prisoners being held without charges or representation in Guantanamo bay?
Should I look the other way when we torture people in Abbu Graib?

Wow, if thats what you want me to do pretty bird ... man, are we in trouble. I guess it really is every man for himself.
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/11/06 12:15 AM

Victor, your words are truely inspiring
Posted By: victor

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/11/06 01:07 AM

wink
ps - i'm not the only one who thinks Bush is 1 burger short of a happy meal.
check out this
http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/c.../moos/2006/05/10/moos.bush.jokes.up.affl
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/12/06 12:19 AM

I was just being really really sarcastic, okay? I just got really ticked. I'm sorry. I know you wouldn't do it. I know there are a lot of people out there that hate Bush. I just hope they don't become democratic just because they don't like him. Most of the people that are "Bush-Haters" seem to tell the world that more. I am truely thankful for to majority of the people that gave Bush a second chance. Just because Bush isn't the greatest president in the world, doesn't mean he can't become one.
Hey, Albert Einstien asked questions and Michael Jordan got kicked off of his highschool basketball team.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/12/06 02:35 AM

Wow this post is just going a little too far… Bottom line is this is AMERICA… Freedom of speech and freedom of religion. If you don’t want to say the pledge you shouldn’t be forced to… I don’t need to say the pledge so show I love my country… Actually with the way things are starting to look the laws of this country are starting to tick me off…I don’t want the government pushing anything they believe what it means to be American on me… Just because they think it is morally right… Hey I vote… I pay taxes… That is as American as I need to be… Freedom of CHOICE is what it is all about… And I choose not to say the pledge… If my future children choose not to say the pledge that is their RIGHT… And no one is going to take that way from them or me…
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/12/06 02:36 AM

Quote
Originally posted by victor:
wink
ps - i'm not the only one who thinks Bush is 1 burger short of a happy meal.

1 burger short of a happy meal! I love it that is funny! laugh
Posted By: Monterrey0love

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/12/06 10:55 PM

Yeah, hahaha. Sure. You can't MAKE your kids not say it, it is their choice.
Posted By: pretty bird

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/13/06 01:57 AM

Climbtreez you wanted to know about people being considered property just look at what is happening in some of the African countries where women and children are being abducted raped and made to kill their own people where the children have to flee into the cities every night to be safe Also some of the middle eastern countries where women and girls are not allowed to go to school what do you think Afghanistan was like? The girls there were not allowed to go to school if they did they had to hide it the women were not allowed to be uncovered they could be punished by public execution if they did anything wrong Women could be beaten in the streets by men and nothing was done to stop it. I'm not saying America is perfect all I'm saying is I'd rather live here than a lot of other countries in the world. What kind of gets me is that a lot of stuff happened before Bush ever became President. For many many years the United States has given foreign aid to countries to have them turn around and spit in our faces I won't say they all do but there are a lot who do. What about countries that we send foreign aid to that their leaders keep it for themselves the people never see it? As far as the bird flu goes I think the news media likes to hype a lot of it but don't you think that a pandemic can happen? We have had them in the past and I hate to think of another one happening with world travel the way it is it will be awfully hard to stop. Goverments better start thinking about it and get prepared and not wait until the last minute and then say sorry. I don't like the idea that the rich get all sorts of tax breaks and its not just Bush its the whole government that I blame for this. No if you don't want to say the pledge no one should be able to make you I think it was wrong of the teacher to give a detention for that reason. I told my husband that when it comes time for elections I'm voting for everyone that is not in office now I don't care what party they are in. Trouble is most of the people in goverment have no term limits which I think they should. I don't think they should be allowed to tack on all their little pork spending bills onto important legislation I think that is one of the BIGGEST CRIMES. I feel that most people in our goverment don't care its not their money so they just spend spend spend on stupid stupid stupid stuff. Example bridges to no where, $100 hammers, super expensive coffee pots this is what I think we need to stand up for Instead of all the waste help our citizens thats why I'm going to vote this way I want to send a message for change. Think about it if everyone that is in office now got kicked out it might make the next batch think a little more. So no I don't like everything, there is a lot I don't like but like I said I would not want to live somewhere else. Jenny Leigh just want to say your a very mature 8th grader gives me hope for the future.
Posted By: snow hen

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/15/06 04:12 AM

The bottom line is that a huge majority of Bush's voters think he is JEsus Christ. They think the world will end soon, and he will save their richeous souls for voting republican. It is very frightening to me how deeply engrained religion is in politics. Way I see it, you have 3 groups of people. You have you're radical right(ie corporate scum, radical evangelicals, christians etc.). You have the progressive, more reasonable thinking people, who for the most part can keep religion out of politics. Then you have the people who could care less, who don't understand government, and who are basically preoccupied with distractions, ie telivision, ipods, etc. WAy I see it, the only people who can be converted is this third group. The other two are set in their ways for good.

Now lets get one thing straight to all you Bush people. The country and the government are not the same thing. YOu can hate your government, the thing you put a name to( good ol' us of a),and still love the country. But what truely matters is the people. They are what makes the country, and that's where I see the problem. Yes there's your ignorant, childish president, and the corrupt cogress, supreme court, and what have you, but where I see a problem is the culture. The spoils of empire for so many years have made many corrupt, arrogant, unthinking. This is what I see that needs to change. A real turn around in what it means to be American. But I see nothing to be done, and this is why empires fall.

On a side note on the Christian faith. Many people don't realize how deeply engrained this religion was in Nazi germany, and indeed, the Catholic church tries to distance itself from this. Perhaps they saw Hitler as a Jesus reincarnate, similar to the way the right wing views Bush. To many thinking people, it's obvious how crooked, and even wiked for that matter Bush and his croanies ideals really are.
Anyways, it's a similarity that is very striking, the way religion was in things then, and how it's in them now...........I'll stop ranting now
Posted By: climbtreez

Re: Must we pledge our allegiance? - 05/15/06 11:32 PM

You make a really good point snow. I personaly feel that religion should have no choice in goverment so I guess that Im in the second group.
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