Lisa Shea

to clip or not to clip

Posted By: budgee

to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 12:48 AM

iv read soo much about clipping.. pro's, con's whatever and i will say that i decided to clip budgees wings the second day i had him, and i did it myself, as per instructions i read online, i did it one feather at a time on each wing lettiing him fly each time to see the affects before i cut anymore, and i made sure his cuts were nice and clean, no burs or ragged edges...budgee is now depended on me for his security and safety and i assumed that responsability when i did it, also i spend time stroking his little wings afterwords, i think this solidifies his trust in me, he can still fly,i cut his primaries but left the last 2 feathers a little long...cut rounded at the tips, but a little long. i am hopeing that they will grow back..but by that time it wont matter.
i think wing clipping is the key to hand training.
Posted By: Sylv

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:00 AM

I totally disagree that clipping is the key to hand training.
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:07 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Sylv:
I totally disagree that clipping is the key to hand training.
no explanation??
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:13 AM

Budgee, I have trained three UNclipped budgies successfully and must say that I disagree with you. Does it take a little bit longer? Sure it does. But anybody who is going to have pets should have the patience required, in my humble opinion.
Posted By: I Love Gus & Milo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:18 AM

Well Gus was clipped from the store when we got him... and we have not really had a hard time at all. I broke the rules and took hi out on the first day and he was happy with hands since day one... so I think that it all depends on the keet. Like people there are fast learners, slow learners, and somr that rather just notlearn at all... And while I think that clipping wings is a huge debate I am a fan of the Half-clip my self. The feathers are long enough to get places that are close, btu not long enough to take them very far.

Anyway... taht was my 2 cents
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:28 AM

well, in my very humble inexperienced opinion,
training any animal in a domestic environment requires control, and control equels safety and security.
do i think it can be done clip-less?, sure i do! do i think its practical for the average person who wants to OWN a keet? nooo.
my take is this: its a very small price to pay (wing clipping) as a trade off for trust and security while training your keet.your bird must be made to trust you,an EXPERIANCED trainer can accomplish this...the average bird owner will loose patience very quickly..and as a result end up with a cage bound bird ( what a tragic shame!)
so i say, ask yourself what direction are you willing to give advice?...clip, or not?...even a dog needs a leash and coller to learn control.
Posted By: Sylv

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:38 AM

I am really sorry budgie but I disagree with everything you just said.

Gus in my opinion your budgie was easy to tame because he was very very young when you got him,that is the key not wing clipping.

It is too late for me to go into it now but i will tomorrow.i must go to bed it is close to 2am here.Goodnight all.
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:40 AM

well lets al keep in mind that a wing clip is like a hair cut wink
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:59 AM

Quote
Originally posted by budgee:
well lets al keep in mind that a wing clip is like a hair cut wink
Only in the sense that the wings grow back. That's where any similarity ends.
A haircut doesn't affect the person's mobility in any way, shape or form. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that wing-clipping temporarily handicaps a bird (there are many pro-clipping people here, so, just to clarify, I don't want to provoke anyone!) but I really don't think it's comparable to a haircut.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 02:07 AM

Since your bird is already clipped Budgee, this is a moot point we're discussing now. However, I'd like to ask you to try having a flighted budgie after you've fully trained him. It goes without saying that you'd have to budgie-proof the room first; most important issues being no large mirrors and no open doors/windows. See how you like it. You may decide to not to clip the wings anymore. No harm in trying, right?
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 02:23 AM

reggie,
sierra was clipped when i got her as well, i didn't have a choce. and although i'd love to let her fly, there are more than one stories of keets who have died/suffered severely from being flighted because they flew out the window/hit the wall... i just don't want to tske that chance. and i have mirrors everywhere, it would be totally unsafe.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 03:48 AM

Yeah I am having a horrible time deciding... if I want him to be in danger of flying into sometihing or my cats getting him if he ever got out or even him flying out of our house... stuff like that he came clipped and escaped once when the cats weren't around it took me and Trinity's Mommy a long time to get him even with out his wings... he would stay still he was flapping closer and closer to the cats litter box in the other room... I got scared and ran into front of him and then Trinity got him by getting the cage closer to him and he finally got close enough so I could use the clean fish net (never used) to push him in... he was so scared and breathed hard for about an hour... it scared me pretty bad... what if he odes that again... I guess he got scared and out he went.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 04:14 AM

Well, it all depends on your circumstances. If I had cats or kids around and couldn't ensure my birds' safety, I would probably clip my guys' wings too. I'm really happy with them being able to fly around, though. It's very nice to watch and you can tell they really enjoy it too! smile
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 04:18 AM

Yeah that experience really scared me I though he had gotten litter on him, but it was his feather... I though he could get sick if it had been litter I was so worried... then he tried the same thing the other day, but his time the cats were in the room, but luckily my hand was in the way so he just couldn't come out again.
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 04:23 AM

it IS very scary. sierra was out and playing on her tray beneath the cage. i was reading, and watching her at the same time (read, glance up, read, glance up, read, glance up) when suddenly i saw her hang upside down. she couldn't get back up. then she flipped and her head got stuck between the bars! she scared me to death.... i was so shocked and scared that i was staring like an idiot. she could have choked to death, and there i was, frozen... it was so scary. now i wrap a blanket around it. good thng she was perch trained at that time.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 04:24 AM

Blaze, that incident you describe is proof that clipped wings don't guarantee safety. I mean, one can't just say "They'll be fine, they can't fly" because:
-they can probably still manage to fly a short distance, just enough to get into trouble!
-it's hard to tell when the wings have grown back enough to allow them to fly (my sister lost a bird just because of this -she thought the bird couldn't fly away but the little guy did!)

I have had flighted birds for three years now. I guess I'm lucky in that my guys have a VERY predictable routine and they almost never change their flight route! They are such creatures of habit! Anyway, it works well when they are so predictable.
Posted By: Madison

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 05:19 AM

I think clipping just for the sake of training is cruel. It's rendering a living creature helpless so it's forced to depend on you for everything, even before it may be ready. I don't like the power struggle that implies at all. In people, that would be an extremely unhealthy relationship.
I'm not saying don't clip. I'm just saying that I do not think the "clip to make them like you" mentality is a good one.
Posted By: Rick & Gebo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 08:53 AM

I hand trained Gebo in four days without clipped wings. He is a marvelous flyer and I could never deprive him of that joy. I do mean joy too.

Owners of birds that can fly normally will all agree that the bird LOVES to fly and you can see it in their behavior before and after they take off.

Cutting a bird's flight feathers is cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion and I would NEVER do it, especially to a developing baby, which most pet Budgies are when you get them.

Sorry to come off so hot on this, but I really do think it does more harm than good, and really only benefits the bird owner. The poor bird really gets nothing out of the deal but arrested development in terms of flight skills.

My two cents. wink
Posted By: Sylv

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 09:33 AM

Sierra you say that budgies that can fly get into danger but don't you think clipped birds do too.I have never clipped any of my budgies wings and never will.Obviously you need to cover mirrors and make sure the windows and doors are closed but you have to take precautions also with clipped birds.With cats about I think wing clipping is much more dangerous for the bird.The older the bird and the more used it has become to flying the crueler it is.Imagine a bird that flies then all of a sudden he takes off and bang hits the ground or flutters around not being able to get where he wants.I wonder how that feels to the bird.With baby birds it isnt as big a shock but still in my opinion it takes away their independance and most of all their confidence.A bird that can fly and has never had its wings clipped is confident,balanced and happy.They not only use their wings for flying they use them for balance.I think it is so unfair and cruel to clip a birds wings just so that you can pet him and have him on your hand and make him rely on you.He isnt doing it out of trust and friendship,he is doing it because he has no choice.How frustrating it must be for a bird to want to go to a particular item or his cage or whatever and cant.He cant ask you to put him there can he.I know if they are clipped certain ways they can fly somewhat but why not just let them fly?
Posted By: judy

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 01:40 PM

"your bird must be made to trust you,an EXPERIANCED trainer can accomplish this...the average bird owner will loose patience very quickly..and as a result end up with a cage bound bird ( what a tragic shame!)"


i never knew that a living creature could be MADE to trust anyone. anyone with patience, kindness, and perseverence can GAIN the trust of an animal. and i would never consider someone who buys a bird and then leaves it in their cage because they lose patience an "average" bird owner.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/02/05 09:37 PM

I agree with everything you all are saying, but like everyone is saying... I think it should be what you think is best for your bird... his freedom and his fun... and which one is more dangerous to you... but in the end Kazu did come clipped... I know of this one bird at the store me and Trinity's Mommy named him... yes he has been up there for three months long enough to go through his molting he came up there going through it, but something happened to him before he got there and his wing is... well it looks broken and has grown back fully that way... he has all of his feathers and his wings have grown back, but he can only fly like a clipped bird... I feel sorry for him, but he is the biggest one up there and no one wants him... it is sad. He isn't very friendly with the other keets and he is just getting older and older with out being tame... I have tried, but there are at least 20 in the cage so it is hard... I would say he is probably six or seven months old cause he stopped loosing feathers three or four weeks ago... I was guessing he stopped molting.
Posted By: adieu

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 12:32 AM

esso loves to fly and he uses the house like his home. when he sits with me i know its because he chooses to and not because its his only option. if people lose a keet because the keet flies away, slams into a mirror, window, or wall in an unfamiliar room, it is not because the wings were clipped but that in combination with failure of the owner to ensure the birds safety.
Posted By: Budgie Care Publications

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 12:50 AM

Many people have the view that clipping a birds wings helps the bonding process. Unfortunately, this is what they're being told again and again by Pet Shops.

From my experience it does not do anything of the kind. All you end up with is a bird sitting on your hand or shoulder, not because its tame and wants to be with you but simply because it has no choice.

There are many steps to training a baby bird that require effort and patience and as long as it is finger tamed IN THE CAGE FIRST (to avoid any fiasco when trying to return it to its cage) AND YOU TAKE ALL THE NECESSARY SECURITY PRECAUTIONS around the home (one room at a time) then there should be no problem in letting it out. I'll summarise some of the security precautions in a separate post if any of you want it.

As I say many times to people I visit, the thrill of the bonding process is when your bird flies to you of its own accord because it wants to be with you. This only comes about through patience, tender loving care and trust.
Sylv knows what I'm talking about.

Finally, when purchasing your bird it is my recommendation you do not let anyone talk you into clipping its wings.

In regard to a baby budgie, clipping its wings will rob it of its natural ability, inquisitiveness and spontaneity. This will be extremely noticeable in that early and essential bonding period and be particularly evident when it is out of its cage for the first time.
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 02:04 AM

for those opposed to flying freedom:
it isn't very natural for a budgie to live in a cage/eat at the same areas/interact with other "species", is it?
sylv, these are full length mirrors. my mom refuses to use bedsheets to cover them and says that they make my room look ugly.
i just don't want anything bad to happen for sierra because she was flighted.
Posted By: adieu

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 02:25 AM

i just crack up every time people use the "well it isn't natural to put them in a cage argument."
its like saying - well since we are doing something "unnatural" to begin with, that we might as well keep making things even more as unnatural as possible.
that is called rationalization.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 02:51 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Esso's mommy:
i just crack up every time people use the "well it isn't natural to put them in a cage argument."
its like saying - well since we are doing something "unnatural" to begin with, that we might as well keep making things even more as unnatural as possible.
that is called rationalization.
You beat me to it, Esso's Mommy; that's exactly what I was thinking!
I just LOVE that avatar picture of Esso, by the way...
Posted By: Squeekychiimp

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 03:06 AM

I just thought I would add my 2c worth about clipping wings. I bought a budgie a couple of years ago from a mall pet shop (she died within 2 months unfortunately). The gal at the counter took her out of the cage and was clipping her wings before I took her home. As she was holding the frightened bird and trying to clip it's wings, she yelled at it very loudly every time it nipped at her fingers. I told her it wasn't necessary to clip the wings but she told me it would be fine. She kept yelling at the bird and saying "NO" when it nipped her fingers. I told her to quit yelling at the bird.....I couldn't wait to get out of there! I ended up calling back and reporting her once I got home.

But the really sad thing was that poor bird never would let me touch her! I think she equated any female with fear and pain! I will never again let someone clip wings on a bird I buy after that episode.
Posted By: hpetS

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 03:47 AM

La Sierra Madre -

I understand your concerns about the full length mirrors. I have an almost wall-sized mirror in the room where I keep Link & Zelda. When they started learning to fly they would crash into it a few times, but I think that was mainly b/c they were trying to build up the muscles in their wings. In the 3 months they've been flying, they have NEVER crashed into that mirror again.


I don't know if that helps in your decision to clip Sierra's wings or not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that keets will learn quickly whether or not they can fly into something.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:03 AM

I also have a full-length mirror and my budgies seem to instinctively know to avoid it. It's not in their flight path, you see.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:12 AM

Yeah well... I think I will keep them un clipped, but I have to wait for them to grow back... does any one know how long that cold take... cause I want to know if they will be back after he is done molting like in two or three months and hopefully by then he trust me and he is trained.
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:48 AM

I honestly can't see why people keep aruging about this smile I mean, we are NEVER going to change each others opinions. Some people are totally against clipping, some arent, you should not push your opinion onto other people and dismiss things they say and try to make them seem 100% wrong because you dont like their opinion on this. There are pros and cons to clipping, and there are pros and cons to not clipping. YOU know whats best for your bird. Not ANYONE else. While in some peoples opinions you may be a bad owner for clipping, to most you are not, and it should only matter what is safest for your bird in the end. I really dont think its fair to say any owner is at fault for a birds death that died from a flying accident; yes, you should cover mirrors, you should cover windows, there is nothing you can do about walls though; and lots of people that are trying to talk someone into not clipping a bird will say things like they will learn where a window, mirror, ect, is, and that they cant fly at it, well, that is what they have been told, they were only trying to do the right thing; and when something terrible happens just because they listened, its not fair to blame them. Birds can easliy hit walls in rooms they are familiar with, all it takes is a sudden noise to scare them. And saying clipping wings is a punishment is not right either, as no one clips for punishment; they clip to keep them safe, because they love them.

As for clipping for training, I have mixed feelings about this. It seems crule, but when you really think about it, its not that bad. An untrained bird is more likly to fly away from you, scared. And if its out of the cage, or happened to get out while trianing, it could be very bad as they would most likly be in an unfamilr room flying at full speed and not trusting you enough to come back to you, which can lead to flying accidents, I've heard about it plently of times.."I let my bird out to train it and it flew around like crazy hitting walls and stuff! I was so scared!"

I wont say its unnatural to keep a bird in a cage and compare it to being clipped, however I will say its unnatural to be in a box (your house) surrounded by walls constantly. Birds are meant to fly, yes, but in the sky, open, with nothing in their way apart from trees.

Also..
Quote
I don't know if that helps in your decision to clip Sierra's wings or not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that keets will learn quickly whether or not they can fly into something.
This is true but please keep in mind that it only takes one unfortunate crash to stop the learning process. Your birds were lucky to have a chance to learn, but a lot aren't.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:50 AM

Once is all it would take to kill them if they hit it right (or wrong). I don't believe in forcing anything to trust you and I don't believe in clipping for training sake. HOWEVER, every bird I get will be half clipped for saftey. After what happened with Kodi and from what I know from Alyssa, my birds will be clipped and they will be clipped correctly. Nothing about a caged bird is natural, period. I have no opinion on the sides of that argument either, I just stated fact. Yes clipped birds can get into trouble, but unclipped birds get into trouble clipped birds do, as well as trouble clipped birds cannot. If Kodi had been clipped properly I would still have her, that is a fact I have to live with. There is my 2 cents on this and I will stay out of it from now on. A bit of advice though: different situations call for different measures, and you can't force someone to agree with you.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:51 AM

Alyssa, you beat me to it. How are you?
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:53 AM

I'm pretty good. I have a cold. Stupid cold weather (I love it though). You?
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:55 AM

BTW, I believe in waiting to clip until a bird is at least through it's first molt. Clipping before that is like cutting of the hands of a toddler. If the hands magically grew back after a while, then would the kid have any sort of coordination or ability to use them properly? Probably not.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:56 AM

I'm alright, just getting over bronchitis. Anything interesting happen? How's Cosmo?
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 04:59 AM

Ew, bronchitis. I had that when I was little.. awful. And, not really..Cosmos fine.. he is getting, uh, very noisy lately xD He chirps constantly. And he goes into this panic chirp everytime I leave the room, then it turns into an angry chirp, and then he stops, and when I come back hes usally taking a nap. And when I lay down, he CACKS at me to come back, sit by him. Hes finally decided the spray bottle is not the devil and LOVES to be misted now, he goes nuts, hangs onto one of his toys and fluffs up flapping his wings crazily getting soaked. Other than that.. same old hyper Cosmo sense the last time I talked to you :p
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 05:01 AM

Awesome, I'm glad Cosmo's doing well. And bronchitis is no big deal for me, I have it chronic so I get it around this time every year. I have never heard of a keet CACKing, lol.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 05:02 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Little Lone Wolf:
Yes clipped birds can get into trouble, but unclipped birds get into trouble clipped birds do, as well as trouble clipped birds cannot. If Kodi had been clipped properly I would still have her, that is a fact I have to live with. There is my 2 cents on this and I will stay out of it from now on. A bit of advice though: different situations call for different measures, and you can't force someone to agree with you.
About the first part of your statement, one can say that clipped birds can also get into trouble unclipped birds cannot: as in not being able to fly away from another pet, say a cat. (I note that a lot of people on this forum have cats as well.)
I don't think anyone's trying to change anyone's mind here. People are just providing different points of view. I fail to see what could possibly be so wrong about a debate.
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 05:05 AM

Oh, its not a debate thats wrong, those are fine. But to me some of the comments here really arent needed and arent very respectful. I wont point anything out, as not everyone might see them that way.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 05:07 AM

Once again, you beat me to it.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 05:08 AM

And the whole cat thing is what I meant by "different situations call for different measures." Well I have school so I have to go, but I hope to continue this tomorrow, as long as it doesn't turn into a fight like previous similar topics have.
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 06:55 AM

well, i read all the post's.. seems to be a mix of reactions, as to clipping. non clippers seem to base their decision on personal conviction, and clippers tend to base theirs on practicalities,
i could care less about budgees "right to fly" if i had that in mind i would have joined PETA and let all the little budgies loose after closing hrs.
but, seeing how budgees are domestic creatures flying now becomes a by-product of ownership regardless of how we may justify ownership...after all, it is ownership right? you did "buy" your budgie...right?? so, after you who place your pets on higher ground come to realize this fact perhaps ownership may take a different road...you feed your feathery little friend, such as i do, i place myself in total control, accept total responsibility for the well being of budgee, i am his master! he doesn't eat without me feeding him, the most basic proof, and i know he cannot live outside without care..so for budgees own safety its my responsibility to insure he does not fly away..without learning first that i am his owner, i am a good responsible owner,i love budgee, i will let budgee fly, after budgee learns and accepts his home, his owner and his life.
if budgee chooses to fly away after i have done everything in my power to teach him, then so be it, he will then either live in a cage all his life,after being caught or die from exposure from the elements. but.. so far so good , he enjoys living with me, in my office, in my house, i let him fly as far as his little clipped wings will carry him
he lives as free as he is capable of doing as a pet bird, i do as an owner look forward to the day when his wings grow back and he accepts his life here.
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 07:06 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Rick - Gebo's Human:
I hand trained Gebo in four days without clipped wings. He is a marvelous flyer and I could never deprive him of that joy. I do mean joy too.

Owners of birds that can fly normally will all agree that the bird LOVES to fly and you can see it in their behavior before and after they take off.

Cutting a bird's flight feathers is cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion and I would NEVER do it, especially to a developing baby, which most pet Budgies are when you get them.

Sorry to come off so hot on this, but I really do think it does more harm than good, and really only benefits the bird owner. The poor bird really gets nothing out of the deal but arrested development in terms of flight skills.

My two cents. wink
yes rick, i had a dog that LOVED to chase cars...guess where he is?? you take an animal out of his element and you accept all the little gremlins that go with it..in hind sight..should i have controled and trained my dog before i allowed him his "freedom"??...you tell me???
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 07:15 AM

Quote
Originally posted by judy:
"your bird must be made to trust you,an EXPERIANCED trainer can accomplish this...the average bird owner will loose patience very quickly..and as a result end up with a cage bound bird ( what a tragic shame!)"


i never knew that a living creature could be MADE to trust anyone. anyone with patience, kindness, and perseverence can GAIN the trust of an animal. and i would never consider someone who buys a bird and then leaves it in their cage because they lose patience an "average" bird owner.
all domestic animals are MADE to trust hence DOMESTIC! budgies are DOMESTIC like it or not. splitting hairs can always be done even at the micro level.."AVERAGE" bird owners???just consider the cost ( $20.00) and the frequentcy of purchase.
that should sum up the "debate"
Posted By: budgee

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 07:26 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ReggieTheBudgie:
Quote
Originally posted by budgee:
[b] well lets al keep in mind that a wing clip is like a hair cut wink
Only in the sense that the wings grow back. That's where any similarity ends.
A haircut doesn't affect the person's mobility in any way, shape or form. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that wing-clipping temporarily handicaps a bird (there are many pro-clipping people here, so, just to clarify, I don't want to provoke anyone!) but I really don't think it's comparable to a haircut. [/b]
hate to hurt anyones feelers...but its EXACTLY like a haircut if done right....mobility is EXACTLY what your trying to control, you are the owner!,assume the responsability feathers grow back.why make training harder then it has to be?
Posted By: Sylv

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/03/05 09:33 AM

I would just like to say that after many years of experience with domesticated pet budgies that there is a big difference in a pet budgie that isnt clipped to one that is.Also clipping a birds wings after it has been used to flying can actually stress the bird very much.The bird all of a sudden loses the ability to fly and in my opinion that isnt good for the bird.You do not have to clip a birds wings to make him tame in my opinion if you are only doing it for this reason then it is cruel.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/04/05 03:43 AM

Well I agree... but what if they come clipped and some people just assume they are supposed to stay that way and never fly.
Posted By: Taru's_Mom

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/04/05 04:06 AM

non of my birds have ever been clipped. I prefere my oets to WANT to be with me, I dont want to force it, but the more force you use the more you will drive them away. Taru has never been clipped, he chases off my dogs so he can have me to himself lol training him was abnormally easy, yes the first few times of being out of his cage, trying to ctach him was h*ll but when he started to trust me enough and fly to me freely and give me kisses, with no encourgment from me to do so.. well thats and awsome feeling. he does not sit on my head or shoulder because he has to, he does it because he WANTS to be with me. to me there is nothing to beat the feeling that you have truly gained an animals trust. I train all my pets with this in mind. I have a rabbit from the shelter the first 2 months I had her she would actually seek me out to attack me, but I continued to let her out and let her come to me, now many rabbit people are jelous that my rabbit will jump into my arms and I can cradle her in my arms like a baby. my dogs can be walked off leash and wont leave my side for a steak. like I said nothing can beat the feeling of having a pet that trusts you so completly that they dont have to be forced to be with you.
Posted By: ReggieTheBudgie

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/04/05 04:34 AM

My sentiment exactly, Taru's Mom; you said it much better!
Posted By: horsewise

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/04/05 04:44 AM

ricky is clipped but he can still fly really well. meaning the last time he got out he flew perfectly and landed on an armrest. if some bizarro wild animal came into my house while hes out hed be able to get up outta danger but he doesnt do laps around the room like unclipped birds. by the time his flight feathers grow back in hell probably be done handtraining and then i have no problem with him flying around.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 03:02 AM

It all depends on how short they were clipped.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 03:36 AM

Okay, I just found out that Mrs. Wooldridge (my librarian and friend) just lost her budgie a day or two a go. Dixie flew out the door. It wouldn't have happened if she were clipped, so now I am even more resolved to clip. I now know at least four people that have lost their birds (in one way or another) because they werent clipped. Coincidence? Maybe, but it has made up my mind completely. And those of you who are against clipping, are you also against fencing dogs and keeping hamsters in a cage? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to find out where everyone stands.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 03:42 AM

Yeah, but I have cats... I think since the door is suppose to be always shut... that I rather him fly into a wall than my cat kill him... I just don't want my cat to kill anything and I really don't want him to die, but he is very far from the door to the outside... most of the time I have him out is when everyone is asleep in the morning or around 6 when my dad is gone and mom is watching tv... and plus the cats are either outside or in my room with the door shut... and when i say out I mean I train him... if I got him out now he would freak and I probably wouldn't be able to get him back in his cage for like an hour or two... he is hard to calm once he is scared.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 03:50 AM

It is ultimately your choice and I am not trying to convince you to see things my way, but hitting the wall could kill him too. However, if you have cats then you might want to keep him flighted. You will have to be VERY careful either way.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 03:57 AM

I know and with his little flapping into my hand every time somethings spooks him has to hurt cause I have claw marks on my hand and he is breathing very hard afterwards.
Posted By: Jloc

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 05:33 AM

I think the fact that some people have had birds escape is a poor excuse to clip a bird, personally. I just honestly can't see why people have birds that escape, maybe a small % is just plain bad luck, but the rest is just irresponsible, I've never been even close to having that happen nor has my mom and she puts her bird outside all the time, in the cage of course but that is much more likely to be an issue than a bird indoors. Like I said I would never consider the fact people lose birds when deciding on clipping or not, if you are careful it won't happen, the bird shouldn't loose it's feedom and joy because you don't want to be careful about open doors and windows. This isn't directed at anyone I just feel that way about the whole fact that people clip birds so they don't fly away, you shouldn't have that problem.

And yes it's all about choice, I would never clip, even after multiple people telling me that I have to, so that the bird will bond with me, yeah right. Another reason not to clip is if you ever decide to let your bird do what it wants to do and fly, it will likely not be able to fly nearly as well as it could have if it was never clipped. Sparky my moms bird flies ok now, but it took her quite a while to learn how to fly well, she was clipped from the store so my mom had no choice, but she use to bump walls and could only fly in short bursts. Now a couple years later she can fly pretty well but when I have Frodo and Sparky playing together you can hear a large difference in the sound they make when flying, SParky seems to try so much harder to fly where as Frodo practically glides and is very quite almost effortless, so I think it's much harder for clipped birds to learn how to fly and to build up the strength to fly. Plus they just love flying, I could never take that away from them, even with both our birds being flighted, they only spend a very short time actually doing so, they love to play on the gym or on people and will fly between the two and every once in a while they will boost out a couple laps around the room.

Anyways thats how I feel, it's all up to the owner but unless there is a really good reason I think clippping is no good, and there are very few good reasons. Good luck guys and let us know what you decide. Jloc
Posted By: hpetS

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 05:45 AM

I agree with you, Jloc, about birds not flying so often.

Zelda & Link most of the time climb to the highest spot outside their cage rather than fly. They'll only fly once or twice around the room & then they'll go back inside their cage & warble (the sound they make when they're happy).


Different strokes for different folks.
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 05:50 AM

i'll say.
sierra goes outside every two days (when i clean her cage) and i never open the cage door while she's outside. i've heard my fair share of stories of birds escaping through that teensy weensy crack through the door. and the myth about clipped birds not being able to fly is not really true, as the right balmy breeze can lift them up and help them soar.
i still stay with clipped. everyone has their own opinions smile
Posted By: Sylv

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 09:55 AM

LLW I would like to say in answer to your question about weather I am also against Fencing in a dog or caging a hamster.This is not the same as clipping a birds wings.The same would be to cut the dogs or hamsters legs off so that he couldn't escape.To fence a dog in is to still allow him to be a dog but to protect him from escaping and danger just like not clipping a birds wings but keeping doors closed and windows to protect him from escaping and danger.If a dog can jump high you put up a higher fence,if a bird can fly well you keep doors and windows closed.If everytime you opened your door your dog ran off and escaped would you cut off his feet to prevent this?No you would be much more carefull when you opened the door and would make sure before you opened the door that he wasnt around,correct?

When you have a bird with clipped wings he can still get into a lot of danger and problems and as you know 4 people whos birds have escaped I know many more whos clipped birds have died or been severely injured because they have been clipped.
Posted By: Lone Wolf

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 04:29 PM

Your right Sylv, I suppose it is different. It's just that after what happened to Kodi I am not willing to risk having another baby fly away from me.
Posted By: Rick & Gebo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 07:37 PM

Like I said before...

Clipping the wings ONLY benefits the owner. It does nothing for the bird and as Sylv said, causes stress.

How would like to have your legs tied together so you couldn't walk? Basically the same thing. A natural act, that has been eliminated from the animal's mobility choices.

Birds get out because the owner is irresponsible enough to leave a door or window open. If you are going to own a bird, you need to make the extra effort to eliminate the chances of a bird getting out of the house.

Clipping the wings of a bird repeatedly to keep them from ever flying, in my opinion is route of a lazy bird owner. Just like dog owners who keep their poor animals penned up or tied to a tree all the time.

There is nothing positive about it as far as the bird's quality of life is concerned. It places the bird in danger, and removes one of the major joys these animals have. Gebo LOVES to fly more than anything else he does! I can't imagine ever denying him this freedom to express himself.

I would rather not own a bird than to do this to one.

I obviously have a VERY strong opinion on this issue. wink
Posted By: chirpy

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/05/05 08:31 PM

For those whose birds have clipped wings ... try letting the feathers grow back and let them fly around for a month or so before you decide whether you should clip their wings again. I can pretty much assure you that you will see a big difference in their behavior. They are much happier and healthier when they can fly. You don't have to believe me ... just experiment for yourself.
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 02:50 AM

I am going to see how he reacts to everything once he is done molting by then i figure he will be used to his environment by then.
Posted By: Jloc

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 03:32 AM

And to add to what Chirpy just said start in a room they are very familair with and make sure windows and mirrors are covered because clipped birds seem to not fly so well at the beginning and need some time to learn how to fly well. They will learn and end up being great flyers but some need some practice. And I agree they will be so much more happy being flighted, thats what birds do they fly, I mean how happy would a fish be if it couldn't swim, not very. I do understand a few situations require birds to be clipped but I still don't like it and sometimes wonder if the person should just not have a bird altogether. I hate to use such strong words but I just can't imagine how bad it must be for a bird that can't fly, and they are still in plenty of danger, if not more so because they can't escape animals that want to eat them, or even could get stepped on or drown in a small puddle of water like a toilet or sink. ANyways just be careful and your birds will be fine, good luck and keep us posted. Jloc
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 03:47 AM

I speak for all of us when I say we will.
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 03:49 AM

ive heard that if u clip parakeets wings it is easier to hand train them...but i do not believe that
Posted By: Blaze

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 03:52 AM

I don't think so and that has already been said, but don't worry about that lamont... this is a long topic and has a lot of opinions.
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 04:11 AM

Quote
Clipping the wings of a bird repeatedly to keep them from ever flying, in my opinion is route of a lazy bird owner. Just like dog owners who keep their poor animals penned up or tied to a tree all the time.
Really, thats 100% unfair. Just because someone loves their bird and does not want to take the risk of it flying away or crashing into something doesnt mean they're lazy, not at all. I'M not lazy, I choose to clip simply because I have experienced first hand how awful it is to watch them crash and break their tiny necks. This does not make me lazy. Cosmo is going to be clipped, but its going to be the type of clip that will allow him to fly, as far as across my room, however he wont be able to gain much height and very little speed (that, would be the life saver in the event that he crashed). He will still be able to fly, get where he wants to get, ect. He probley will not be able to do laps around my room, but I think we can both deal with that.
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 04:29 AM

sierra's wings are starting to grow back... now she can fly about four feet off the ground... i'm getting worried frown i don't trust my petco, they do it really viciously and not gently at all.
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 04:33 AM

how long does it take for them to grom back?
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 04:51 AM

i wanted to get my bird's wings clipped
Posted By: Jloc

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 04:55 AM

I'm not sure how long it takes for them to grow back, I would assume about by each time a bird molts but I could be wrong, some that clips will have to answer that.

Alyssa, I can understand why you clip. I wish that did not happen to you, it was very bad luck and very sad. And being that it happened to you I see why you want their wings clipped. I have a question for you real quick, was Elkie clipped at first and then grew out her wings or was she never clipped? I couldn't remember, I think birds that grow back their feathers have a much harder time flying or at least learning to fly. You provide Cosmo with a wonderful life so no worries, he is a very happy bird and at least he can do a bit of flying. I still feel the same about clipping but as I said in all my posts there are always situations where clipping is understandable and I consider yours to be one of them, I would be very upset to lose a bird like that. Jloc
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:00 AM

She was clipped when I got her, but she learned very fast.. she was a great flyer. The worst she did when she first started out was missing her perch to land on every now and then but quickly got past that after a few weeks. What happened was, I guess, I had her in the living room and I've took her in there.. countless times, everyday, most of the day, sometimes I would just bring food and water in there and let her hang out on the curtin chirping, so she knew the room as well as mine. But something spooked her in mid-flight, and she was heading for her curtin rod and turned really fast to come back to me. She was too close to the wall when she turned, and she cought her neck on it. She died instantly.. it was horrible. My mom got so upset, she doesnt even remember what happened really, but I remember her bending down to help her up thinking she just stunned herself and saying "Come on girl"..and then standing up crying. Yeah, it was horrible. frown
Posted By: Jloc

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:10 AM

OH man thats terrible! I remember when you first talked about it, it was so sad. Well it's good to hear that she was a good flyer, many birds clipped young don't fly so well, and it sounds like you were very careful and a great owner for her, so I can see why you clip, how else could you avoid that happening again, clip. I think it might have been just bad luck/timing and just random, but I can see why you wouldn't want to find out if it was or not because if you lost Cosmo like that you would be in bad shape, anyways I respect your choice because of what happened, I still feel the same about clipping in general but I see why you feel that why. And I KNOW Elkie was a very spoiled and happy bird just like Cosmo is, so no worries. THanks for sharing that Alyssa, I hate hearing about stuff like that and wish it didn't happen, all we can do is try our best and spoil them rotten. Talk to you later. Jloc
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:22 AM

Cosmos already proven to be a danger to himself (uh..and my FACE), he can fly pretty good now sense hes got.. I think 4 full flight feathers on each wing grew in. If I dont pick him up as soon as he comes out and give him a kiss and scratch him, he jumps/flies at me and tries to land on my FACE xD Its horrible, haha. Other than that.. hes just clumbsy and hyper, and I really think he will be a lot safer clipped, so that he cant fly more than he can now (which..he did a full lap around my room yesterday, so hes got a LOT of mobility now). Anyway, before he would fly, he would trip over his own feet, and of course you've all seen him do flips and just get into impossible situations..hes no better off flying, worse, really. He tried to land on my sheleve (well, he did, perfectly, except he decided to go BEHIND everything else after he landed and I couldnt get him because it was too high for me. So I played the waiting game with him), and while he was up there he got dusty and was pecking around at..whatever, dust, I guess, so after 30 minutes I had to get a chair and force him down. Hes gone up to my curtin rod a few times, and when he gets up there, he wants to CLIMB down the curtin rather than fly b ack down, so hes lost his grib and fell more than once.. he seems to already have flying pretty much down, hes perfect at landing, he just likes to get into trouble. I've had to keep him up more lately, because hes just driving me nuts. I ended up getting a scratch across my cheek from him trying to land on it. >o
Posted By: Rick & Gebo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:28 AM

That is a VERY sad story about your previous bird Alyssa and as Jloc said, I can completely understand why you would be leery of having a totally unclipped bird after that.

My comment about LAZY owners was really not directed at anyone here. People who take the time to come to this forum to learn about how to best care for their birds are obviously not lazy.

I was referring to people who buy them as throw-away pets and clip the wings so that they don't have to be bothered with worrying about them flying out the window.

Just like the dog owner who gets a dog, ties it to the backyard fence pole and then lets it bark all night because it is lonely, while the lazy owner ignores it.

I am sure EVERYONE here has lived next to a neighbor like that. That is a LAZY pet owner, and is the same kind of person that would buy a bird, have its wings clipped and never think twice about the effect this has on the bird.

Cosmos is obviously a very loved and happy bird, and I would not consider his situation typical. Sounds like you are making an effort to still provide him with some flight ability, which is unusual. Most clipped birds fall like a rock if they try to fly and can't get off the ground to save their lives, which is often why they die in the mouth of a cat, or dog.

I can say this... An unclipped bird can be safe if they learn the room or rooms they have access to.

I think I mentioned that Gebo has learned that the sliding glass window is a barrier, so he avoids it like any solid object now. In fact, when he takes off for his laps, he is pointed directly at the sliding window which is about 6 feet from his favorite launch point, but he turns a hard right and begins his circle of the living room.

He does occasionally graze the ceiling very slightly since he likes to fly as close to it as he can get for some reason.
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:30 AM

your bird is very energetic from wat i read
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:32 AM

Cosmo? Oh, yes, very energetic. Right now, he is holding onto his perch flapping his wings so hard he can't hold himself still... kind of, hovering down the perch trying his best to hold himself still while he flaps..it really is hilarious looking.
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:35 AM

lol i bet it is sunshine(the name of my bird) is sleeping now
Posted By: Rick & Gebo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:38 AM

Sorry... typo.

Cosmos is still up?

I think I have one of the few early birds around here. wink Gebo has been asleep since 4:45PM when the sun went down.

I was at a pet store tonight getting a rope perch for Gebo's second cage and it was really weird to see all the keets up and active. I get so use to him crashing early that I forget he is probably the exception.

I don't care for bright room lighting and keep my place nice and subdued at night, so little Geeb just goes to sleep.

In a way it is good since I can watch my movies or play my video games without all of his noises distracting me. wink
Posted By: Alyssa

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:44 AM

Yes, but hes going to bed in..15 minutes. 12. Hes still very hyper, but I put him to bed then anyway. I stay up late and sleep late, so Cosmo has gotten into my sleeping patterns. He wakes up around 11-12 in the afternoon and is up till 12 at the lastest at night.
Posted By: La Sierra Madre

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:50 AM

i am an early bird. sierra and i wake up around six and go to bed around eight for her and ten for me. like Alyssa said, they coordinate their schedules and napping times with you smile
i'm sorry about elkie, as far as personality she sounded a lot like sierra.
sierra's flight feathers are growing in now like i said... one full on on each side and then a half on the right side.
Posted By: Rick & Gebo

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:51 AM

I remember from that video you posted a few weeks ago how active he always seems to be.

Does he ever just sit still and rest?

Gebo goes through stages all day. He will sit there all quiet for about an hour, then all of a sudden he starts looking around real fast and squawking, and that is when he starts yanking on his Cocoswing or his other toys, or holds on to the cage door wanting to come out. Almost like someone flips a switch on him and he starts going.

I remember you mentioning the schedule adaptation thing Sierra. It is a good thing that they do that, or it would be tough trying to work with them.

I imagine that if I kept the room real bright, Gebo would probably stay up longer, but since he is so near the big sliding glass door with our nice view from the third floor, he seems to follow the rising and setting of the sun. (West facing place too)
Posted By: lamont

Re: to clip or not to clip - 11/06/05 05:56 AM

sunshine is kind of calm but then again she does laps around the room sometimes
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