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Re: The Hand and The Knife #76642 01/01/07 02:54 AM
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FreePhil Offline
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I agree with Satya. The caracter on the right of JC definitely looks like a woman. There are only three characters without a beard, the 2 others have pronounced male features. There is no way the one on the right of Jesus could remotely pass for a man. That only fact is very obvious and very startling.

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76643 01/01/07 01:50 PM
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Berzelmayr Offline
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Okay....... and who is this: http://www.billik.mysteria.cz/Billis294.JPG
A man or woman? cool

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76644 01/02/07 06:46 AM
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looks like a woman to me...high cheekbones...and he/she def. looks like they have boobs...but please correct me if im wrong...


~*~Brownie~*~
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76645 01/02/07 01:28 PM
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Berzelmayr Offline
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The person from this photo is a so called "teen idol" from Germany. His name is Bill Kaulitz and he is currently 17 years old (the photo seems to be quite recent).

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76646 01/02/07 01:58 PM
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Welcome to the new members:
Alethia, FreePhil & Bron
smile smile smile

* * *

I know that there are lots of young men who could pass as young women, but I just don't think that it is possible to be 100% certain of whether or not Leonardo might be suggesting that 'the beloved disciple' could have been female.


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76647 01/02/07 06:06 PM
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....Only that from Leonardo's viewpoint one theory would make a lot of sense and that is giving the "beloved disciple" John the look of his own "beloved disciple" Salai (Gian Giacomo Caprotti da Oreno) (did I mention that St. John was even the patron Saint for painters?)

We do know that a "queer reading" of the relationship between Jesus and John isn't really new, but in fact centuries old and it's much more believable that Leonardo wanted to express that (he would be still on a safe side as the Dominican monks, who saw this painting, surely didn't know anything about Salai), while turning Jesus into a heterosexual husband wouldn't fit to his own private life as he never married (like other important artists of the Renaissance, too).

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76648 01/02/07 08:41 PM
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thats a guy? wow...while obviously a person can be wrong about something like that...but about the issue as to whether the person in the picture is really a man or a woman i dont think that you should use that picture as a basis...back when christ was alive they didnt have the luxury of makeup to hide thier true sex....whereas today if one wanted to decieve people all would need is alittle makeup and the right haircut....


~*~Brownie~*~
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76649 01/07/07 06:14 PM
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Berzelmayr Offline
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This was a modern example, but here is something that predates Leonardo's "Last Supper" by more than 150 years. It's a drawing I made recently after a Photo from an book about Gothic art (the head from a gravestone of a German nobleman named Kuno von Falkenstein):
[Linked Image]
(you just have to trust me that I did this realisticly wink

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76650 01/20/07 04:35 AM
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Ok, I stumbled upon this website and couldn't help but get drawn into the discussion about the Last Supper painting. But I don't think it's that hard to figure out what Leonardo was trying to hint at with the knife.

I'm a Christian and have studied the Bible. During the last supper, Jesus says one of the disiple's will deny him. Peter responds that he would never do such a thing. Jesus then tells Peter that he will deny him 3 times before the rooster crows. After Jesus gets arrested, 3 people recognize Peter as a disciple and 3 times Peter denies even knowing Jesus. The knife is pointing towards Peter and obviously shows that he will "stab" or hurt himself by denying Jesus. Leonardo hints to the future with Judas's bag of coins so why couldn't he hint at Peter's future denial of Jesus?

I also noticed someone asked about Judas and Jesus's hands and their open grasping position. Jesus said that whoever reached into the bowl at the same time as him would be the one to betray him. So Leonardo showed them both reaching for the bread or whatever.

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76651 01/20/07 10:23 AM
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Peter's knife is actually a reference to John 18,10 :
"Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus."

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