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Re: The Hand and The Knife #76202 11/16/04 08:46 PM
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Lisa Shea Offline OP
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Other people have talked about that as well, that Peter is trying to stop something dangerous from happening and that the danger "comes from Judas" even as Judas tries to put on an innocent front.


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Re: The Hand and The Knife #76203 11/26/04 01:52 PM
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diddly Offline
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the hand and knife. i think the opinion of the hidden apostle, the "short one pushed over by peter" is very far fetched. i dont think this person would have much function at the table, as he does NOT hold the knife. it is either held by peter,(which is plausible, if you look closely, you can see a colur difference on his robe, completing the hand TO his wrist, making it his hand that holds the knife.) or by a hand coming form nowhere, as suggested in the da vinci code. Given that this hidden charcter has no function, i dont think Leonardo could have stood this lack of sense of space, he owuld not have made the sacrifice for something that (to my knowledge) doesnt have a function. this person would have to take up the space that peter is ovbiously occupying.


everything's never clear when you're happy. nothing's only clear in melancholy.
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76204 11/26/04 07:43 PM
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Lisa Shea Offline OP
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Diddly - actually if we're going to start worrying about who takes up what space in a realistic, actual people sitting at a table function, then we are all doomed smile Look at that picture with a logical, critical eye. Is there really room for all of those people to sit down at that table, on their own chair, and eat a meal side by side? smile

So a lot of that scene is most definitely symbolic and not "functional".


Lisa Shea, Owner
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76205 11/26/04 08:05 PM
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fair enough. as a student of art hisory, its drummed into us to look at sense of space, etc etc so thats the first thing i noticed:) its not stressed to see the message of paintings, which i think is a bit stupid, as this is the basis of most art in the first place. just trying to make sense of it all:) i guess the only way we'll ever ever know whose the hand is, or who its pointing at, etc is if we speak to da vinci himself. which ... if you try hard enough... *cough* anyway. i really enjoyed the site, i found it this morning while on *sick* from school *another cough* and instead of the revision i desperately need to do, i spent HOURS poring over the site. it made me quite happy:)


everything's never clear when you're happy. nothing's only clear in melancholy.
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76206 11/27/04 12:38 AM
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Interesting forum-

The first thing that leaps at me is the relationship between Judas' left and Jesus' right hand - both seem to be reaching for something, perhaps the same thing......

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76207 11/27/04 07:44 AM
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Lisa Shea Offline OP
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Diddly - I'm really glad you enjoyed the site! It started as just one page, and then people kept writing in with comments so I kept adding more pages to hold their comments. So it's really a cooperative effort between hundreds of readers smile

Wouldn't it be nice if artists left long, detailed descriptions of what they were thinking when they painted something? smile What we need is a time machine. How hard can it be to build a time machine??


Lisa Shea, Owner
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76208 11/27/04 07:50 AM
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Sly - welcome! Actually his right hand is holding something - it's holding the bag with 30 pieces of silver in it. In the "real" timeline he wouldn't have been paid that yet, but Leonardo was making sure we knew this was Judas. Judas is drawing away from Jesus and holding that silver close to him, as if to hide it.

The other hand seems to be reaching out for the plate in front of him, which is silver. Maybe he wants to steal that too smile


Lisa Shea, Owner
Re: The Hand and The Knife #76209 11/27/04 10:35 PM
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Surely both the hand of Judas and the hand of Jesus are both reaching to dip their hands in the dish:
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
--Matthew 26

Also, what does the writing mean on the red arches above the table? If you follow Thomas' finger upwards he appears to be pointing straight at the letters and Mary is sitting underneath another set on the other side of the table. They are probably just dates, but I was intrigued as I don't speak Latin.

Re: The Hand and The Knife #76210 11/28/04 01:53 AM
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Ah, Rhea, you may be quite right about the left hand! That would explain what that hand was doing. The right hand is most definitely holding a bag of silver, that's pretty much agreed on by art historians.

I'm zooming in on a super high quality version of the painting and I don't see ANY letters in the painting. Behind the group are three windows that are rectangular - and above the center window is an arch. The finger actually points up between the center and right window, so it points up next to the arch, not to the arch itself. But the arch has no letters at all ...?


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Re: The Hand and The Knife #76211 11/28/04 01:46 PM
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i think reah means the letters on each side of the wreath thing in the centre arch. mary m is almost definitely under the left-hand letters, but thomas isnt as directly under the right-hand ones....


everything's never clear when you're happy. nothing's only clear in melancholy.
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