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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: janimal] #421014 12/25/11 09:17 PM
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Grrr82CU Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: janimal
"...look at nast's santa, and look at what mitzen turned him into - which looks more like the modern santa??


Ah...but your argument was that SANTA (as you hedged your comment later that you meant) - "Santa" is the "modern" creation of and by The Coca-Cola Company and as you further insist - a "retail invention". But regarding the "modern" issue - go back as you have said for me to do and re-read your original comment. The word "modern" is not used - imputed by context perhaps - but still not there as a distinct word in your sentence.

So...now you want to argue that Thomas Nast's SANTA - drawn 60 years earlier than the Coca-Cola "Santa" and also apparently just because it's a pen and ink, black and white drawing typical of his day- and even though Nast's "SANTA" was portrayed with a big belly, white beard, pipe, spectacles, etc., etc., as a human "SANTA" and not as an elf as documented in the prior post - doesn't count as beating Coca-Cola to the creative drawing board ???!!! all because Coca-Cola's illustrator started using color and drew in his own ideas as Nast had done before him in turning SANTA from an elf into a human ??

I have to laugh - not meaning as with any disrespect. It's just...well...whatever anyone wants to call it...when someone digs in their heels and refuses to acknowledge the obvious as you are doing in the face of documenation upon documenation - that "Santa" is not the "modern-day creation of the Coca-Cola Company".

Retailers (including Coke) have of course played their part in promoting the contined advancement of how "Santa" is drawn but it's the PARENTS and cultural changes that are the real driving forces behind changes in Santa's "image". The children and adults of Nast's day were in a simpler time than we today and as each generation of children has become more and more advanced and interactive in the world around them, artists have and continue to respond in how they portray Santa's image (for as you have at least in part correctly surmised, to sell stuff).

On the point of the "look" of Santa being only since 1931 and Coke's illustrator's rendering and representing the "modern Santa" - here is a picture of SANTA on a 1920 Christmas Post Card , which is very much a "modern-day" Santa. Its likeness is still seen in retail stores displays, "greeting cards", toys, and gifts.

Note the post card and the drawing of "SANTA" in 1920 is not as an elf but as a human "SANTA" - just as Nast started in leading the way on that change (you know, that pesky sixty years I keep bringing up before Coke's illustrator followed Nast's lead).

The link leads to a current online auction on Ebay of a Picture of a 1920 Christmas post card with a "modern day" drawing of Santa in the upper right hand corner of the card:

Click on the "postcard" to enlarge for a better look at the card itself. (Presumably this image will not be availble indefintely through the Ebay link. At that point, I will reproduce it from another source because it isn't copyrighted and post it later on if needs be).

1920 Christmas/Santa Postcard for sale

Whether it's a less complex drawing such on the 1920 Christmas Postcard or the more elaborate one by Coke's illustrator - the fact remains they both represent what we see in retail stores today. Neither are Santa as an 'elf' - both are as a human, just as Nast started drawing him in the late 1800s as already documented.

Tell us @janimal - why don't we see the Coca-Cola Santa everywhere if that's the "modern" SANTA ??

Why? Because Coke has copyrighted their [i]GRAPHIC version[/i] of "SANTA" - but they can't "copyright" SANTA "en masse" can they - since they weren't the first to represent him in drawings similiar to the one they copyrighted nor did their copyright include the name of "SANTA" or "SANTA CLAUS"!!

Coke has their version copyrighted - but that doesn't keep us from seeing many other "artist concepts" of SANTA around does it! The fact that Nast's version is not seen anymore (if you would presume to try and argue that) ... is because it's not the 1860s, 1880s, etc. anymore and we don't see "black and white" Christmas anything as was typical of his day in newspapers and magazines any more.

Moving on - since it seems @jinimal that clinging to your postition is more important than being comforted by simply knowing that Coca-Cola improved on an earlier "Santa" by Nast and then used their marketing genius to spread that "updated picture" around the world - why should I bother to continue with the futility of presenting you with documentation that so clearly and repeatedly distinguishes your claims and statements from those of histoical facts about Santa and origins of Christmas? You are quite content believing as you continue to do (complete with accompanying 'bah! - humbug!').

Your continued line of argumentation reminds of "...don't confuse me with facts... (like 1930's drawings of Santa predating Coca-Cola's by 60 years)...because my mind's made up !!"

Before wrapping this up, a moment about your exposure to the "Dutch" and "Santer Klaas".

"Santer Klaas" - that was a typo on my part. The Dutch name was "Sinter Klaas" - and that was what they called "St. Nick" when they immigrated to the US in the 1700s.

As to continuing to insist "santa is clearly hispanic" - amazing. You continue to be confused about the fact that although the Spanish word for "saint" is "santa" (no argument there as in "The Santa Maria") there is not a shred of evidence supporting your claim that "Santa Claus" is of Spanish orgin historically.

Of course today with its worldwide exposure through Christmas celebrations, those in Spain and Mexico as well as all who speak Spanish of use "Santa" Claus.

I would challenge you, however, to provide evidence that when those of Spanish/Mexican descent refer to the jolly old fat Coca-Cola "Santa Claus" - they have in mind "Nicholas the Saint" and not the Coke "Santa" (or some other rendering of the character).

You know as well as I do - they aren't thinking about "Nicholas the Saint" any more than any other parent/child in any country or language thinks of "Nicholas the Saint" and not "Santa" the jolly fat man in the red suit pulled across the shy on Christmas eve bringing gifts.

While we are stil on that topic @jinimal, why not go ahead and produce your proof that the "founding basis" for creating the name "Santa Claus" is of Spanish or Mexican origin?

We will be waiting.....

Originally Posted By: jinimal
"...as for referncing sites like mystic realm for info - i won't even dignify that with a response. these so called pagan websites are nothing more thanphantasy and arsewater. at least look at somne serious sources.


First - no one knows better than "pagans" where their ancient beliefs now hide in "Christian clothing", sanctioned by a Church that couldn't stamp them out so it brought them into a "Christian" setting by renaming some, changing ritual for liturgy, and more @jinimal.

Dismissing them as "phantasy and arsewater" is to overlook that they know better than you or me where their ancient beliefs still live disquised as "Christian" (and given your comments, especially you). I can only wonder how many things you believe, observe, and even celebrate in complete ignorance that they are derived from paganism.

Secondly - your statement "...look at some serious sources"...I have and put them here in responses to your comments more than once before referencing the "pagan" websites. All you have continued to do is to ignore and dismiss them all regardless of whether "serious sources" or "pagan"!!

Finally, what you choose to accept or not accept about the inclusion, adaptation and propagation of pagan customs and beliefs into early Christianity including Saturnalia, Oestra, Mithraism, Sol-Invictus, and many others because the Church couldn't stamp out their flocks continuing to practice their rituals and belief in them even after converting to "Christianity" - is up to you. Those with any serious mind for religious history know better - such as knowing that Constantine remained committed to Sol-Invictus until on his death bed when he accepted formal "conversion" by the priests administering Last Rites (that was when Constantine finally accepted Christian baptism).

Nothing more to be accomplished here by additional responses from me. You believe what you believe and that's your right. I'll leave any future responses to you on this topic to someone else if they want to take the time. The documentation that can independently be validated which has been provided in the multiple responses to you - stand on their own merits.

It's "Christmas Day".

Enjoy your lump-of-coal.

Last edited by Grrr82CU; 12/26/11 03:11 AM. Reason: Some additions, some deletions, some typo corrections
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421073 12/30/11 10:53 AM
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janimal Offline
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you obviously have a lot of time on your hands, and we obviously disagree.

i think nasts drawings, particularly the elfin ones are significantly different to what appeared in the 20th century.

and you obviously take 'pagans' seriously whereas i don't. in my experience they are phantasists who ascribe themselves to cults about which nothing historically solid is known. as for example the 'druids' who were wiped out almost 2000 years ago and reinvented less than 100 years ago. all the present day pagan cults are modern inventions and the religious equivalent of world of warcraft. so don't waste my time arguing so verbosely about these invented non cults.


It's All got to go!!!

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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421082 12/31/11 04:34 AM
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Calm down, Janimal smile


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421084 12/31/11 05:40 AM
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AMEN...ahhhhhhhh but yet i cant help but to admire the passionate fire herein

and personally i dont care what is politically/spiritually,or historically correct or not...

its a sad day when a human being can not wish someone else to be merry and prosper with health and joy thru a holiday season...and do little more than to breathe doom and gloom and rain on anothers parade of good wishes.

may each and all dip into the bucket of life of your own chosing and take with you that which is of your leaving...a lump of coal or a ladle of joy.

Last edited by illusive Fantasy; 12/31/11 05:42 AM.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421085 12/31/11 02:26 PM
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Hi smile

Yes, I wish everyone the compliments of the season, but would be very wary of discussing the so-called 'true meaning of Christmas'.

This may, indeed, have become a 'Christian Feast', but there is no doubt at all, in my mind, that we are really enjoying a pagan celebration ~ one that may go back many centuries.

Happy New Year everyone!


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: janimal] #421086 12/31/11 07:24 PM
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Janimal, I was just reading thru the posts this morning thus I have not really had time to look at anything lately. I understand that you have your doubts, as do I, but your facts are not entirely true. There are way too many organizations that call themselves the descendants of the druids, neo-pagans, new age gauls and many others who practice nothing more than falsely written texts practiced by people like Aleister Crowley. The way my mother's Fraternal family history goes is that sometime in the long past our people came from the East to the Green land of Eire(Ireland). Falling upon hardship about two-hundred set out to sea for the Isle of the Scots and settling near the loch of our patriarch (I believe that the lake was Lake Coruisk) until many years later when the people were too many another move had to be made. Changing conditions and war with other clans caused great loss of life during the move and when they settled they settled on the island of Skye, they started out with about five hundred and wound up with about 120 finishing the journey. It was hundreds of years before they had to move again and that was when the christians came. Some of the clan stayed but most of them moved and this time it was to Estonia. Here they lived and thrived with little interference, in both their spiritual and reproductive paths. I am sure that there were many years that their activities had to be practiced in secrecy and the people themselves were conformists to mans law but the entire point in this story is that they survived and the story is not all that different than ones you and I have heard thousands of times (i.e. the Jews, Welsh Mystics, Masonics, American Indians, etc.) My thrice great Grandfather and Grandmother came to the US, from Estonia, along with a few other relatives in order to be able to practice their religion freely and openly and I guess little did they know that Estonia would eventually turn out to be one of the last modern Pagan nations even now in the 21st century. As you can imagine this is the story for not only my family but many others as well but to respond to the scepticism about this subject even I did not know about this part of my family until just a few years ago and since I found out, and started participating, it has awoken something inside of me that I cannot describe with words. My family, who worship the Old Gods are Gaul, Irish, Scot, English, Ukrainian and Estonian. We have Druids, Bards, Witches, and a few more. We have all manner of people in our circle including mechanics, students, two lawyers, housewives, farmers, several doctors, engineers and others. All of them spend as much time as I do at study, practice and travel for the will and worship of the Gods. Our farmers prosper, the women are fertile and the healers heal all because of this faith that is “Dead” in the eyes of the rest of the world. Our oldest elder is 104 years old and has not been to see a modern Doctor in fifty years and he worked on FDR’s campaign here in our home state for goodness sake. Janimal I ask not that you believe in a God, Gods or even Divinity but try not to destroy those that do because faith is a strong thing especially in this puke of world we live in now. What you say about some pagans are true but on occasion, especially where you live, I think you will meet the real deal.


"Nowadays, people know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." - Oscar Wilde
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421087 12/31/11 07:45 PM
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Mongrel, no one can destroy those who do believe, try as they may...in their respective belief structures...

but no one should find, nor will they, any satisfaction to **try to pilfer,demean,or cast any negative shadow** toward the joy from those who do believe in something....it would be a effort in futility anyway...

may each and all dip into the bucket of life of your own chosing and take with you that which is of your leaving...a lump of coal or a ladle of joy.

myself, i wont spend anymore of my energy here on this subject...be happy in your own findings or beliefs and leave others to theirs.


Last edited by illusive Fantasy; 12/31/11 07:52 PM.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Mongrel] #421089 01/01/12 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mongrel
on occasion, especially where you live, I think you will meet the real deal.


happy new year mongrel.

all i can say is these people must be really good at hiding. i have spent 30 years around cornwall, especially tintagel, which is one of the new age capitals of the world. i have known many dozens of people with dreamcatchers in their windows, druid robes in their warderobes and runes hanging around their necks who sit in their crystal magic shops taking money off gullible people for readings and polished stones. they all have one thing in common - they are deluded and full of crap.

i have met christians who i can safely say are 'for real'(in as much as i can apply the term to any religion, all of which are ultimately phony), and i have met many muslims, hindhus, bahai's, etc to whom the same applies. i have never ever met a 'pagan' whom i can take seriously. in my experience they are all people who picked up a tolkien book and never found their way out of the pages again. they are doing their best to live an 'alternative lifestyle' and calling yourself a pagan is part of the package. it has nothing to do with belief, everything to do with image - look, i'm a hippie, ergo i am a pagan. bullshite.

all this is just my opinion and experience but there are some things i can say with absolute certainty. there are no druids, sylvians, or sucklike which have any connection whatsoever with their ancient counterparts. satanists are not following an ancient cult, their religion was invented in 1966, and dreamcatchers and runestones as we know them stem from the 1960's. tarot cards were invented by the inventor of the monopoly board game, and nobody knew very much about withches and practical magic before the likes of tolkien started writing books. is it any wonder i can't bring myself to take this stuff seriously?

it has nothing to do with destroying peoples beliefs (as if that were possible) it is more about refusing to give something respect and credibility purely because someone has decided to call it a religion. i think the old established cults are a crock so to me this pagan stuff is comic book material. absolutely laughable.


It's All got to go!!!

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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: janimal] #421090 01/01/12 05:43 PM
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You are right on so many accounts janimal though I cannot simply apply that same logic to my situation or 126 of my relatives. I am not going to go into the specifics of my worship with you except to tell you that we do not believe in crystals, dreamcatchers or any of the stuff you seem to despise except the Gods and I cannot say anything more to disagree with you than this.

Everyone has a spiritual life and everyone worships one God or another even atheists. In today's world people who constantly pursue money, position, business and power well they worship Ba'al(Just like in the days of old, Just like the Kings of old) and that applies to pretty much everyone that has not officially denounced him. Those people that wish to die because of one reason or another worship the Gods of death(many names), and people that wish for war or destruction well they worship the Gods of Chaos(Loki,Etc) or the Gods of War (Ares,Etc), then finally a God that we all worship in the modern age(including you) Hephaestus - the God of Technologies, because everytime you go to the Doctors office or log onto your computer you rely on his powers to get you through the day thus when you rely on any God, belief - prayer or not you make him stronger.

Janimal it matters not what you or I think independently - I just asked you as a friend to take it easy when you post your opinions about things you don't have a clue about. Real Pagans have had to hide for over two eons now because of the warring hatred of the monotheist that still exists to this day and if the entire concept seems like a joke to you then you are just as vulnerable to their manipulations as anyone else. I did notice that you said that "i have met christians who i can safely say are 'for real'" well the thing is that I know 127 Pagans who will die for their beliefs and very few Christians except for my Grandfather and Grandmother.

Happy New Year


"Nowadays, people know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." - Oscar Wilde
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421092 01/02/12 11:14 AM
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i think that we are talking about two different groups of people. the pagans you talk about i would by definition be unlikely to encounter, as they do not from what you say publicise themselves, whereas the characters i talk about are all about image. it was not my intent to offend you and your folks, but i'm sure you understand the people i have personally experienced are rather hard to take seriously. you seem to be talking about a different sector of people to the ones which create nerdy half informed websites and rub crystals on themselves.

i still have many doubts - for a start the use of the word pagan - although the etymology suggests adherence to local rural cults, the word itself has over the centuries come to mean non-christian, as is the case for words like heathen and barbarian. it is not uncommon to see muslims, hindhus, etc referred to as pagans. so you see my trouble when a religion and religions are simply classifying themselves as non-christian, rather than druidic, sylvian, nordic, etc. the are saying nothing more than 'i'm different'.

also, many non christian cults have simply been wiped off the face of the earth. the druids famously retreated to the isle of angelsey as their very last european refuge, until christian roman troops turned up and slaughtered the lot of them in the first century before returning to mainland britain to eliminiate boudica's revolt and with that the last traces of celtic feudalism. the only written account about the druids which exists is tacitus' description of the island and rituals, which included many stories of dark magic and human sacrifice, and is widely believed to be nothing more than roman propaganda and a pack of lies. after the first century the druids are conspicuous in their absence from historical records of any kind until the present day. it is interesting to note that the only two cults ever banned by the romans were the christians and druids.

druidic 'belief' enjoyed a revival in the 18th and 19th centuries in the wake of the celtic revivals which were conceived to lend momentum to the irish republican movement. much is owed to tolands highly questionable treatise on druids of 1726, a book i have trouble seeing as being any more historically sound than morte d'artur by malory - another literary work which many people like to treat as a historical chronicle these days, although the existence of king arthur is almost as questionable than the existence of jesus. i have a great deal of trouble believing that this revival has any connections with the religion which was expunged 1650 years earlier and that it has any right to call itself the same religion. as far as i can see the modern druidic cults can at best trace themselves back to toland, but more likely to the 1960's, which saw an explosion in alternative beliefs which has nothing to do with faith, but more with a conscious breaking with tradition.

without rambling it suffices to say that much the same applies to cults such as wikka and the sylvian cults.

i would love to meet someone who i can believe to be the 'real deal' as you put it, but in over 20 years of being right in amongst the new age / reinactment / folk scene, i have met nothing but comedy characters and charlatans who strip the earth of crystals to flog in their shitty shops. very mother earth.

if people like me are to be expected to take these cults seriously, then maybe they should go more public - the vatican stopped burning heathens quite a while ago, so i think its safe to come out of the woodwork now.

as for your assertion that i am somehow worshipping god by proxy - absolutely not. i worship nothing and believe in nothing i can't touch and feel for myself. crystals are only as powerful as their mas multiplied by the force they are thrown with, and incantations do nothing more than sound cool. i find solace in good music, quality big waves, and pakistani hash, but none of these have anything to do with god or worship. i believe in the tangible - my interest in religion does not extend much beyond cultural curiosity, even fascination, and i think that ultimately anyone who needs a higher power in their life needs to learn to believe in themselves more and take more responsibility for their own actions. in my experience pretty much every religious person i have met is escaping from something and this is especially true for the new age cults, some of which (like kabbalah) are so silly even the scientologists look sensible i comparison.

i remain to be convinced.


It's All got to go!!!

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