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"SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? #420901 12/21/11 04:51 AM
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Grrr82CU Offline OP
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Many (if not most whether they wish to admit it or not) are aware or have been told that the origins of "Christmas" and the "traditions" accompanying it have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. To the majority of those professing to be Christians - Jesus is the "Messiah", the "Christ", the "Son of God", the Savior", "Lord of Lords and King of Kings",...and more...if you add in Trinitarian Doctrine which takes those accolades to the next level and proclaims him to be "God The Son". As has been noted in this and other forums, the "traditions" attending the Festival of Christmas which the church assures us is to commemorate and honor Jesus in fact owe their origins to pre-Christian customs and beliefs. The Druids, the Anglo-Saxons, Mithraists, Sol Invicti worshipers, and more have all had their ancient beliefs "adapted" by the early church into "Christian" settings which then led and taught the faithful to believe they are in fact "Christian". Given all of that - and since those customs and beliefs are from "pagan" sources - the worship of what Christianity considers obesience to "false gods and goddesses" - isn't it curious that not only do they willingly incorporate those redacted pagan celebrations and customs into their own celebration of "Christmas" but they have as their lead character not Jesus but Santa. If then Jesus is being celebrated with pagan customs veiled by the church by bringing them into a "Christian" context with only slight modifications to fit a "Christian" model - "who" (according the the beliefs of most "Christians") would be the most amused by deceiving them by such a process. Could it be ?? - that [color:#CC0000]S.A.N.T.A[/color] [i][color:#CC0000] - is an anagram [/color][/i] for that "fallen one", the one whom Christians vilify and blame for every wrong in the world at every opportunity ?? How amusing it must be to "that one" then - if S.A.N.T.A - that jovial lovable character invited into Christian homes, adored by Christian children, romanticized in song and dance, tales about around a tree and fireplace, for whom cookies and milk are left on a chair side table, that jolly fat fellow dressed in a red suit and sporting a white beard upon whose lap countless boys and girls sitting on a representative copy in malls and retail stores reciting their "want" list - all that plotted and brought into existence by the "one" Christians consider their greatest enemy! The "one" who in turn has led [i]them[/i] astray with a "Christmas" that has nothing to with Jesus their Lord but everything to do with what they, the followers of Jesus, have condemned and attributed to that dark force, the "fallen spirit", represented by the anagram of SANTA as a great joke for centuries! [color:#CC0000][i]"But I heard him exclaim, ‘ere he drove out of sight, “Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night!"[/i][/color] (Clement Clark Moore) (.....and no doubt laughing all the way across the rooftops for lo these many centuries) Just a little something to stir the forum-pot - whether you believe in the principle characters mentioned herein or not ;) Enjoy your holidays - however you spend them - and - [i]Grrr82CU !![/i]


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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420905 12/21/11 06:21 PM
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janimal Offline
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yep, with you on the anagram. both on an ironic level and in the the image of santa claus we all 'know and love' is the invention of the coca cola corporation, which invented fanta so that they could keep trading in nazi germany (come to think of it kind of a marriage of the words fascist and santa, only the gifts were being bestowed on coca cola...) and the same company which puts vending machines in schools all over the world to get the kids hooked on sugar water.

the original character was st nicolaus, hence santa claus, and st nicolaus was a stern judge of naughty people. in old german folk tales he didn't have presents in the sack, thats where the naughty kids went...


It's All got to go!!!

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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420910 12/22/11 01:05 AM
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Had to smile at the thought (as I sipped my "Coke Classic") of The Coca-Cola Company inventing "SANTA".

Certainly their marketing department would be ecstatic and exchanging "high-fives" all around. Just the thought of being credited with the development of "SANTA" in concert with their clever ad campaigns and promotions employing the jolly old fellow targeting domestic and international consumers would give reason to engage in libations and celebration even before his departure from the North Pole on his chimney-hopping flight around the world!

The "family tree" of SANTA and subsequent development into what is displayed as "him" today can be traced a bit farther back than the deployment of any promotional creativity by a modern-day beverage company however.

What would the Druids think of their "Holly King" with his bright red berries and sprigs of mistletoe who ruled as the "Lord of the Waning Year" until YuleTide being displaced from Santa's lineage by the Coca-Cola bear? - or - the team of reindeer which were sacred to the Celtic gods and numbering "eight" until the advent of "Rudolph" [[eight - mirroring the total number of solar sabbats]] disappearing from in front of modern day Santa's sleigh?

But then again - what would Santa be without the ancestral relationship to Saturn (Roman agricultural god after whom the "Saturnalia" was named and celebrated at the conclusion of harvest beginning on December 17th and lasting seven days culminating at the Winter Soltice [December 25th in the Julian Calender]?

(Of course - it is reported that the Romans were not so constrained by the formal time for celebrating Saturnalia that they stopped doing so on the eve of the Winter Solstice when the festival was supposed to end).

And surely we cannot overlook Santa as also the progeny of "Father Ice" (Russian winter god), "Odin" (Teutonic god who rides the sky on an eight-legged horse [[instead of eight reindeer of later vintage]]) - or "Tomte" - the Norse-land "sprit" who sprinkled gifts for the children throughout the land at the close of the year can we?

Of course not!

Finally - we come to "Thor" - the kindly Norse sky-god to whom fireplaces were sacred and whose color was red, drawn across the heavens by two goats named "Craker & Gnasher"[[remindful of "Donder & Blitzen" in keeping with Thor as the "Thunder god"]].

Regarding one historical perspective that traces the obvious development of SANTA from THOR:

"Thor was the god of the peasants and the common people. He was represented as an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build, with a long white beard.

"His element was the fire, his color red. The rumble and roar of thunder were said to be caused by the rolling of his chariot, for he alone among the gods never rode on horseback but drove in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher).

"He was fighting the giants of ice and snow, and thus became the Yule-god. He was said to live in the "Northland" where he had his palace among icebergs. By our pagan forefathers he was considered as the cheerful and friendly god, never harming the humans but rather helping and protecting them. The fireplace in every home was especially sacred to him, and he was said to come down through the chimney into his element, the fire."
(H.A. Guerber, "Myths of Northern Lands", The American Book Company, New York, 1895, p. 61)

Once again - given the reliance upon "pagan" beliefs/imagery/and traditions - the evidence leads to "SANTA" - as being an anagram - representing that "dark spirit" Christians focus upon as being the enemy of not only them but of the world. But don't they still spend lavish amounts of money and engage in celebration of "Christmas" in their homes, churches, and with friends??

And all of that, the "holiday spirit", the gift-giving, the lights, the feasts, the exchange of greeting cards and more - continue to be willingly engaged in by "Christians" all over the world - despite the fact that December 25th along with its "Santa", "Christ's Mass" (Christmas), its decorated tree and other "traditions" all come down to them from the early church which adapted "pagan" deities and customs - attired them in their best ecclesiastically-approved sartorial splendor of new "Christian clothing" (or portrayed this or that custom in some "Christian" context as if by that process "pagan" gods/goddesses/beliefs/and customs suddenly became no longer "pagan" but "Christian") - and then presented their work as spiritual shepherds to their flocks as now worthy for use to honor their Messiah and Lord.

One might wonder - if "Christans" hear laughter while celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th - "Christmas Day" - whether or not it's coming from the "one" represented by the anagram of "SANTA" who put this all this together from "pagan" sources using the conduit of their own "Universal Church" to confound, mock, and mislead them.

Surely there are many more examples demonstrating the "pagan" orgins surrounding the development of Christmas and its central character, the children-delighting "SANTA". Reviewing the development and progression of various charicatures of the "jolly old elf" in just the US alone since the 1600s might do for another time.

But - so as not to extend an already lengthy post to one of mind-numbing length - a concluding wish that whether you "believe" in any of those entities and/or that which is mentioned above or not - remember it's all just "food for thought".

Enjoy your year-end holiday however you spend it....and Grrr82CU !! smile


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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420923 12/22/11 10:19 AM
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janimal Offline
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food for thought, eh?

go back and read my post - i said that coca cola had invented the MODERN IMAGE of santa claus, and that they had coined the name santa claus, which is a hispanic ambiguation of the name saint nicolaus, who has historical roots - the guy started a leper colony. find it as amusing as you like, it is a fact.

the druids holly king is an unsupported myth, as is everything believed to be known about the druids, as they were completely annihilated by the romans and left no written record. a more likely connection is the druidic green man who still survives in folklore, but has no connection whatsoever with santa or christmas, as he is a summer solstice figure.

there is no connection with saturn - harvest time has never ended i december, and as i mentioned, the etymology stems from st nicolaus.

tornte is a closer connection, although you missed out that he is closely associated with the reindeer herders tradition of harvesting fly agaric, feeding it to reindeer and drinking the urine in which psilocybin had been concentrated, at which time tornte would fly through the sky on a sleigh drawn by reindeer, dispensing gifts of wisdom. nothing to do with kids, nothing to do with christmas. much more to do with the perfect time to get off your head on fly agaric.

i've heard the connection with thor before and i don't buy it at all. thor was not a cheerful old man (LOFL), he was a hammer wielding warrior, a figure of terror - master of lighting and god of war. goats named cracker and gnasher - please, where the hell do you get this stuff? disney?

do your homework - yes, christmas is botched together from pre christian midwinter festivals, and santa does have some very tenuous connections with old gods, but the chubby bearded old man is coca colas invention - FACT - don't forget that the celebration we now have has only existed for just over 100 years. people assume this stuff is ancient, but it isn't. it is a retailers invention


It's All got to go!!!

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Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420951 12/23/11 01:22 AM
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It is a really fascinating subject.


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420960 12/23/11 04:27 AM
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Part 1 - Response to @janimal

Greetings @janimal


First - with all due respect - your response is unnecessarily defensive.

Nothing written was intended as a personal attack on you or your statements (such as with regard to Coca-Cola, the Nazis, etc.) - neither was comment intended to carry a derisive undertone also with regard to anything you said.

How the matter of your position that the Coca-Cola Company invented (as you insist you said, "modern day Santa" verus an historic Santa) was intended as nothing more than just a "playful" approach when commenting about the company's marketing department "...exchanging "high-fives" all around..." and/or "...the Coca-Cola bear displacing the Druidic "Holly King" from "Santa's lineage...".

All of that was simply intended as "lighthearted" and certainly not meant for you to take as a personal attack of some sort on yur position. That little section was simply intended as a departure point to transition to SANTA's lineage from Scandinavian and other sources. Sorry you misunderstood.

Secondly - what was the purpose of the entry? Was it to trace the lineage of SANTA ?? - or - was it to point out that "SANTA" can be viewed as an anagram for "SATAN" ?? and the lineage of "SANTA" is in effect little more than incidental to understanding the anagram in relation to Christmas ?? (if in fact is one as this writer believes it is).

The title of the post answers the question. Again - sorry you again misunderstood.

The purpose of the piece was never intended to present the lineage and development of "SANTA" as unassailable fact (more than enough sites online attempt to do that) - no, but only to use all of that as a platform based upon which to examine whether "SANTA" is an anagram rather than just simply a "name" for a cartoon character.

Now - all of that have been noted - and as I said - with "all due respect" - there are a number of things you say that really must be addressed.

Originally Posted By: janimal
"go back and read my post - i said that coca cola had invented the MODERN IMAGE of santa claus"


Yes - what you said was...

Originally Posted By: janimal
"...the image of santa claus we all 'know and love' is the invention of the coca cola corporation..."


However - you are incorrect!

While the "image" of SANTA has changed from a elf to the rotund, jolly man with a white beard in a red suit trimmed in white - the latter "image" has been around in very nearly the same form long before 1931, when Haddon Sundblom, the illustrator for The Coca-Cola Company began drawing him into their Christmas advertisements.

The fact that Coca-Cola has a "copyright" on the SANTA's images as drawn by Sundblom constitutes nothing more than copyrighting what he came up with artistically based upon existing depictions of Santa with very nearly the same appearance - all the way back to 1863 when Illustrator Thomas Nast created images of Santa for the Christmas editions of Harper's Magazine. !!

Here one example of Nast's work for Harper's Magazine dated December 30, 1871:

1871 - Harper's Magazine Featuring Thomas Nast's Drawing of Santa Claus

Rotund belly - white flowing hair - round spectacles - pipe - stocking cap trimmed in fur, "naughty & nice" pictures on the wall, stack of letters from kids on his desk - the whole "image" @janimal - 60 years before Coca-Cola's illustrator came up with his drawing !!

Secondly....you also claimed:

Originally Posted By: janimal
"...and that they ("they" = "Coca-Cola" [[my insert for context]]) had coined the name santa claus, which is a hispanic ambiguation of the name saint nicolaus, who has historical roots..."


That too - is incorrect @janimal !! - as may be seen from just the Harper's Weekly caption for their December 30, 1871, front page drawing alone:

[quote=Harper's Weekly Caption naming "Santa Claus"] "Santa Claus's Mail

So you see @janimal - your claims about Coca-Cola inventing the "modern image" of Santa plus "inventing" his "name" - simply is not historically correct.

Much less is "Santa Claus" a "...hispanic ambiguation of the name saint nicolaus" as you claimed.

Dutch settlers arriving in the US during the 17th Century brought with them "Santer Klaas" a.k.a. "St. Nicholas" !!

(Part 2 - Response to janimal - follows)


Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420961 12/23/11 04:28 AM
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Part 2 - Response to janimal

Next you state:

Originally Posted By: janimal
"...druidic green man who still survives in folklore, but has no connection whatsoever with santa or christmas, as he is a summer solstice figure.
"


Once again given your statement, you seem to be unaware that "pagan" websites are clear in their belief that the "Holly King" is the progenitor of "SANTA" - and my guess given your comment about the "Holly King" being a "summer solstice figure" - is also that you are just as uninformed that the "Holly King" is not just a "summertime figure" but in fact rules through the winter right up and including the time corresponding to the modern-day "Old St. Nick/SANTA" leaving the North Pole to make his rounds.

Moving on...

Originally Posted By: janimal
"...there is no connection with saturn - harvest time has never ended in december"


Are you that unaware of the connection between Saturn/Saturnalia/Christmas/December 25th ??

The great festival of "Saturnalia" honoring Saturn begins on December 17th (Julian Calendar) and was celebrated throughout the Roman Empire to December 23 - the eve of the Festival of Sol Invictus (Unconquered Sun) on December 25th !!

Even today in modern times this festival is observed by "pagans" with elaborate preparations for the associated rituals (compare for example: Saturnalia

Next

Originally Posted By: janimal
"tornte is a closer connection, although you missed out that he is closely associated with the reindeer herders tradition..."


No - I didn't miss that at all (and it's "TOMTE", not "tornte") - I simply chose not to list all that which you did because it wasn't necessary pursuant to the topic's theme of SANTA being an anagram.

As a matter of fact, "TOMPTE-SANTA with sack" can be puchased in Scandinavian stores. Here is one such source if you wish to have one (not to mention that once again, you simply don't know what you are talking about when comes to the lineage and development from many cultures of "SANTA"):

Tomte-Santa, the Scandinavian lineage

Next

Originally Posted By: janimal
"i've heard the connection with thor before and i don't buy it at all. thor was not a cheerful old man (LOFL)..."


Again with all due respect, this time you don't know your Scandinavian lore (and apparently aren't aware that the Hollywood and comic book versions of THOR do not reflect the beliefs of early Scandinavians and Celts).

While THOR was a warrior - yes - and engaged in ferocious battles with giants and enemies of both the gods and man - yes - he was never-the-less the champion of the common man - their protector - and would never hurt them according to the belief of those who devoted themselves to him.

For your edification - even from just one site:

THOR

Finally

Originally Posted By: janimal
"do your homework...the chubby bearded old man is coca colas invention - FACT - don't forget that the celebration we now have has only existed for just over 100 years. people assume this stuff is ancient, but it isn't. it is a retailers invention"


I think it has been established that it is not me who needs "to do homework" even without having to review again the inaccuracies of your last statement - again - no offense.

Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420989 12/24/11 11:24 AM
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Hi smile

I really enjoy finding out about the origins of Christmas legends, etc.

One item that I read equated Father Christmas with ~ among others ~ Old Father Time and God himself.


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #420990 12/24/11 11:27 AM
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That 'Thor' reference, to dwarfs making magical objects, reminds me a little of elves making toys for a magical Santa Claus.


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: "SANTA" - Could That Be - An Anagram ? [Re: Grrr82CU] #421006 12/25/11 09:26 AM
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please, look at nast's santa, and look at what mitzen turned him into - which looks more like the modern santa??

as for santer claas??? eh?? i was born near the dutch border, and i know a little dutch. i was up to my eyeballs in german / dutch culture, and i have never heard of santer claas. sankt niclaas, or sankt nikolaus, yes. santa is clearly hispanic - it is spanish for saint!!

as for all the pagan stuff - its a crock. very little is actually known about ancient pagan cults, and much of what people think they know was inve4nted in the past 50 years or so. pick up a book by Galina Krasskova and i think you will be shocked how different a picture is painted by a serious researcher of norse culture.

as for referncing sites like mystic realm for info - i won't even dignify that with a response. these so called pagan websites are nothing more thanphantasy and arsewater. at least look at somne serious sources - by which i mean historical writers rather than geeks with too much time on their hands. you might actually stumble across some facts then.

every year i hear the same crockl - oh, its a pagan festival, its saturnalia, hark the holly man. its all bull. all those pagan rites (the ones that may actually have existed) died out many centuries ago and christmas is nothing, no nothing but a retail festival. thats all, hold the garnish.


It's All got to go!!!

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