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Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: MW1] #398698 04/08/10 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: MW1
.... You can't counsel away nature. .....

True smile


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: PDM] #398845 04/11/10 09:32 AM
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I feel that each person has their own unique path to walk and that only they can know what that path entails. We are all so wildly different from each other. Some are raised by loving parents, Others by abusive parents. Some are raised in caste societies. Others are raised on communes. There is no "one way" or one label or one style. We are all incredibly unique, which makes our world so wonderful. Isn't it amazing that we have such a myriad of thoughts and opinions and chosen paths!

So if someone has a dream inside to be female, I say they should enjoy that dream. Life is far too short for any person to spend their life upset and grumpy over something that can be changed. If they have a goal, they should head towards it and achieve it. I wish them all the best of luck.

If I suddenly learned that Bob, my partner of 13 years, had been female once, it would not bother me at all. I love him, his mind, his emotions, his dreams - not any specific piece of his anatomy.


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Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: Niki] #398910 04/12/10 05:03 AM
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I truly believe that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks except the person who is experiencing the gender identity problem.

Many persons experiencing these feelings don't understand completely what is going on. Family and society teaches them they should feel and be different from how they really feel.

Of course this leads to feelings of alienation and sometimes self loathing as well.

Society in general doesn't accept them and that makes it hard to accept themselves.

If they are lucky enough to get counseling and lucky enough to find acceptance and understanding they become much happier.

The key seems to be acceptance. Acceptance from family. Acceptance from friends. Acceptance of ones self.

The most important being of ones self. The whole world can be accepting of you but if you are a victim of self loathing you are in misery.

Unfortunately, all too often society is intolerant of anything that falls outside of the so called quote un quote "Norm".

How often do we see teen agers taunted until they hang themselves or pick up a gun and start killing people at a school.

People who are suffering from gender identity suffer until they truly learn to love themselves and accept who they are.

In my opinion we should worry less about what "we" feel about these individuals and more about what "they" feel about themselves. The ability to empathize is so important. The ability to feel anothers pain. What a wonderful world it would be if we all tried to walk in anothers shoes for just one day.



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Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: joandboys] #398920 04/12/10 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: joandboys
.... Unfortunately, all too often society is intolerant of anything that falls outside of the so called quote un quote "Norm" .....

Sadly, too often, too true smile


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: PDM] #398922 04/12/10 04:00 PM
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I'm curious to see what all of the above comments have made you think about Niki?

Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: MW1] #399063 04/14/10 09:43 PM
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[quote=MW1]I'm curious to see what all of the above comments have made you think about Niki? [/quote

Well, first of all I apologize for my ignorance in term-usage. =P Totally my fault and not intentional.

Second, I'm still a little fuzzy.

I can understand people having their own path. I can understand us having one life and all. But I have a serious problem with the question of if transgender identification is natural or a biproduct of un-natural conditioning or parental abuse.

I use un-natural with caution. Let me explain.

I can almost assuredly say that all of us, at some point in our childhood, explored ourselves and thought "why am I male/female?" When I was little, I remember asserting that I was a male! To this day, I don't know why. I was extremely young and remember very little. I didn't even know the biological difference between a man and a woman, I just rebelliously told my mom that I didn't want to be what she said I was just because she told me I was! I'm sure many of us had similar experiences, or just instances where maybe as a boy you tried on a dress of lipstick, or as a girl you did as I did or similar.

The key point here seems to me to be how parents react to this exploration of gender. Two things can happen: gently direct the child to "natural" expressions, or encourage them to explore whatever expressions the child wants to.

My question is, is encouraging a child to act, dress, and want to be a gender that he/she was not born okay? Or is it unnatural conditioning and not fair to the child? Is it too much to encourage a child at such a young age? Is it too much to push the child to, if he wants, to wear a dress to school at 5 years old?

Does anyone else know what I mean? I hope I'm not being unfriendly or intolerant in my use of words.

Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: Niki] #399071 04/14/10 11:50 PM
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There was an article on this in the newspaper the other day ~ it concerned Angelina and Brad's daughter, who, at three, gets all her clothes from boys' shops and insists on being called John. Her mother seems to support her in this and her father seems to be amused by it.

I don't think that a big thing should be made of it. After all, many clothes are unisex nowadays. Putting a boy in a dress may seem to be going too far, I suppose, but it seems unfair on him, if that is what he really wants.

I remember reading about the subject of transgender when I was quite young. As far as I remember, while the baby is in the womb, it is sort of hermaphrodite and the sex organs can develop into male or female. For some babies, this development is either not complete at birth, or is malformed at birth ~ just as a child might be born with six fingers, for example ~ so a girl could physically appear to be a boy and vice versa.

If a girl is born looking like a boy and is registered as a boy and brought up as a boy, she will still be a girl ~ and vice versa, so we are not talking about transvestites or homosexuals or anything like that, we are talking about people whose bodies were not correctly formed to correspond with the child's gender.

I think that there is probably a 'sliding scale' where in some cases this becomes obviouis while in others it will not be so obvious, and hormone treatment will be required to effect the sex change completely.


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: PDM] #399078 04/15/10 12:55 AM
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Well, hermaphodites are vastly different than those who "suffer"/experience gender identity disorder. With the later, it's a psychological disorder. After doing more reading, it's pretty clear that they don't really know what cause it. One study did found that in some cases with men the bed nucleus of stria terminalis (BST) in the brain is smaller than usual (women have smaller ones then men). But the study is conclusive yet.

Also, despite my last post about children, apparently the disorder rarely continues through childhood to adulthood, but rather manifests itself in mid-adulthood! From what I've read, there are either too many varying causes, or no known cause.

So now, I'm even more confused on what opinion to hold.

Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: Niki] #399089 04/15/10 08:07 AM
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Well, Niki, is it really a psychological disorder, or is that simply what 'society' has labeled it?

What do we mean, exactly, by terms like 'psychological disorder' and 'medical condition'?

Why can't people just be who they are, without being labelled by others as psychologically or medically 'wrong', just because they are in a minority?

Why and how can anyone have 'an opinion' on this?

Do people have 'opinions' on babies born with an extra finger, or a 'hare-lip', or a missing limb, or underdeveloped lungs, or ... whatever?

People are born as they are born, and medicine can help those born with something that is considered out of the normal range. This may be something life-threatening, like the underdeveloped lungs, or it might simply be something out of the ordinary, like an extra digit.

The medical profession can help people who feel that they have been born in the wrong body. Surgeons can help by changing that body. Psychologists can help by counselling them through whatever is going on (many of us have had counselling). But does this mean that the people involved have a medical or psychological disorder?

I think that the answer would depend upon one's definition. But I do think that those who are not in a position to fully understand these definitions should be careful about having opinions on such 'disorders'. (Similar, I suppose, Niki, to your suggestion that those not educated in the Bible should not have opinions on Biblical matters.)

If we think about it, 'they' (whoever 'they' may be) could label homosexuality a 'psychologigal gender identity disorder', if 'they' wanted to. It seems, to me, that the label has been placed there because society feels uncomfortable with people who do not 'conform' for some reason. (I suppose that this may even be the case for disabled people.)

Certainly, someone who is being forced to behave as a male, because that is what they look like, may feel depressed, disturbed, confused, etc, etc, so they may seem to be in need of psychological help, but, if they were accepted for who really they really were, and, if required, helped to change the way they looked to the way they feel ~ in the same way that a child who had been born with any other feature not 'correctly' developed would be helped ~ then I'm guessing that no psychological help might be required.

Have a read of this:
Originally Posted By: Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph. D
'.. everything was so confusing as I grew up. It's like, one day I was absent and everybody else was taught the crucial aspects of being a boy or girl. I would lie in bed at night practicing and rehearsing how to be a boy. One day in middle school, after being pushed around again, a principal tried to teach me to "stop crying" and "be a man." Bullies, teachers, and others taught me the same thing: there was something terribly wrong with my feelings. I tried so hard to purge from myself every expression of emotion. Really I only needed to be taught one lesson; we do not need to learn to be ourselves, we just are ourselves. Or maybe what it means to be a person is that we invent ourselves. In 1998 I transitioned; I no longer practiced being a boy, I just became a girl.'
http://www.genderpsychology.org/
Originally Posted By: Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph. D
'Removal of the mental illness diagnostic categories "Gender Identity Disorder" and "Tranvestic Fetishism" is recommended to allow for objective scientific work and to heal the divisive relationships between the mental health and transgendered communities.'
http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/index.html


This is from the UK Guardian:
Quote:
'Although it is still not known what causes GID, it is regarded as a medical condition and one study shows that amniocentesis, which tests for spina bifida in pregnancy, can cause a surge of hormones to the foetus, which in turn, can trigger a hormonal imbalance in the child resulting in GID.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2003/aug/20/health.genderissues


Quote:
'Gender Identity Disorder (GID) is a medical condition characterized by an intense and persistent identification opposite to the genital sex to which one was born into. In order to warrant a diagnosis of GID the person must have these feelings for at least 6 months. The question that often arises is "how does this happen?". No one can pin point the exact cause of GID, but please keep in mind that this is not something unique to GID.'
Read more: http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=319#ixzz0l9X7fdBK


Also:
http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9562897
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=81622

Last edited by PDM; 04/15/10 08:09 AM.

"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: Gender Identity Disorder [Re: Niki] #399090 04/15/10 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: Niki
... So now, I'm even more confused on what opinion to hold.

I have just re-read this and I am confused too.
Just what does this mean?
'Opinion' on what exactly?
What sort of 'opinion' might you be expected to have?
What 'opinions' do others hold on the matter?
Are 'they' asking for your opinion?
What is the reason behind this discussion at your college?
I am bewildered?
Do they discuss other 'disorders' in this way?

I was wondering ....
When / If ~ because of recessive genes ~ a white child is born to a Black family, and feels culturally out of place as a Black person in a white skin, is there a label for that?
Is there a 'Race/Ethnicity/Cultural Identity Disorder', that would require psychological and / or medical help and be labelled 'Abnormal Psychology'?
Might your college have a project on such people and ask you for an 'opinion' on the matter?
Would there be any logic to this?

Last edited by PDM; 04/15/10 08:23 AM.

"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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