Carl, maybe you missed my earlier post, where I said:

"If we want to use the sporting metaphor, the 'trolls' were banned. They were ejected from the game and kicked out of the league. You cannot get any more "final" than that. But you are implying that the people who stomped their boots on the trolls' heads after a hip-check should not have gotten yellow flags. I would reiterate that as a fair-minded referee I cannot allow "special members" to get away with being extremely nasty because they have somehow "earned that right" to do it to "people they felt deserved it"."

Being banned from the game forever is not "amused shrugs". I am not sure why you are saying that they got off lightly, given the evidence?

On the other hand, I feel that experienced members should not be abusive to anyone. They - out of anybody here - should know better what our rules are.

It almost seems that you are saying in your post that old time members have "earned" the right to act like trolls towards people they choose to be nasty to. I disagree with all my heart. Is that really the heart of the complaint?

Carl - I pay several hundred dollars a month to keep this board running. I don't know how you feel I could possibly be making money in return to make up for all that cash, never mind the time and effort involved in backing up the database, keeping the forum software current, and the many other time related investments this causes for me.

I make my money from the many other websites I run. This right here is a money black hole which I maintain because I love parakeets.

Lisa, I am so sorry to hear about Pinto. I have been away for quite a while and have obviously missed a lot. What I do want to say to you is, have heart. Nothing is every perfect nor should it be. How boring perfection would be. There would be nothing to strive for or look forward to. There would be no higher ground to achieve. It would be like an old veteran sitting in a room full of recruits. Nothing to talk about. No common ground to share. No way to connect except in the all pervasive all consuming knowledge that you have nothing in common with eachother, other than the fact that you all wear a uniform. There are still a lot of wonderful caring people who will find a way to make a difference and stay to do so. I love the new look of the forum and I wish I could come on more often. PDM knows why I have been away. I hope you never give up on this forum. I know it is a work of love.

JoAndBoys -

Thank you very much, I really appreciate you posting a great deal. It does sometimes seem like some members only post about the forum itself when they are upset, and rarely just to say they are happy it is here. I do get a lot of private messages and email, but it's nice to have it said out in the open

Thank you.

Lisa, I have often expressed appreciation for PDM, and you, also.

I try to be courteous even to people I dislike. Disagreement is not a reason for me to be discourteous.

I admit my equanimity is challenged, however, when another repeatedly distorts what I say. I try to start with the possibility that we don't understand what the other is saying.

That still may be the case.

The first I became aware of troll behavior was on a romance thread, where a person asked for advice about dating someone 3 or 4 years younger (19 and 15, I think). During the course of the initial post, the person admitted to being a homophobe.

From the tone of the post, I suspected (as I have many times in this romance section) that the topic/post was "invented" in order to start controversy. Behavior which has been termed troll behavior is of this type - where controversy is introduced and then harsh comments are made and then lines are formed and sides taken and usually people leave.

I chose to answer the person seriously. I was the first to reply. I was not discourteous.

The thread then went down hill.

I do understand that a lot of the discussions concerning how & why & even what happened went on in PMs between various ones and you, Lisa, and PDM.

And I do understand that people were banned. But we know that people will come back.

The members who left, however, would not sneak back in. They are just plain gone.

You say they demanded to have their accounts deleted. I'm sure that's right. You say further they wanted to "foul" other members. I think that's an over-simplification, and if not a distortion, at least evidence of how little you understand the members who have long been loyal to this board.

Talking it out might well have allowed the matter to resolve - without people having to leave. There might well be others who use wrong language, but IMO we can not have too many of the people who would adhere to the spirit of tolerance and courtesy.

And I think we've lost some. I do understand that you disagree, since they spoke heatedly with you, and left. But I disagree with you, on this issue, and yet I am still here.

Do you think I am being discourteous with you or PDM?

As has been stated, I banned the young people who were behaving badly
Furthermore, members are always told that, if 'trolls' appear, then they should be ignored and not 'fed'.
If one accepts that those people were trolls, then they are enjoying a real feast!

However, before they tuck into their banquet, perhaps it would be as well to remember that this is not all about them.

To quote you, Carl:

I do not understand this.
Certainly you have said positive things about my behaviour on the forum, but this implies that bad things have been happening, which I haven't moderated correctly.
No forum is perfect.
I know that I am not perfect, and I can & do make mistakes, but my conscience is clear regarding my forum behaviour.
I do my best in awkward situations and I believe that I treat everyone with respect, but every so often we seem to get threads of complaint ~ and I do not know what I am supposed to be doing wrong.


Presumably I have been classed as a member of 'the administrative team', yet I would not be here if it were not for the interaction with friendly & caring members. I am a member, myself. I joined and stayed because I loved the interaction.
I have thought of leaving many times ~ I think that I have had enough reasons ~ but, so far, the interesting & friendly discussions have prevented me from doing so.

As I said before, I do receive complaints about members, but not always the same members.
Imagine this scenario:
X says that Y is a troll, but Y says that X is a bully.
Then Z complains that both X and Y are causing disruption, so must both be trolls.
Then A claims that I am being unfair, because I haven't reprimanded X, while B complains that I am being biased, because I haven't reprimanded Y.
I then suggest to X and Y that they calm down and ensure that rules are kept, only for them both to complain that I have wrongly picked on them.
It's a very difficult situation to deal with ~ and not an uncommon one. Whatever I do, someone could be upset enough to leave.
Then their friends will become upset and may complain.
It's an almost unwinnable situation.
There are always at least two sides to every dispute.
I try to be fair, tactful and caring. I can do no more than that.


I always double-check with members who say that they want their accounts deleted. I explain what it means and make sure that it is what they want. One member changed her mind about leaving this time.

It never entered my head that the lad in question was a troll, or that the topic was invented.
I admit that I sometimes do suspect that topics are invented!
But what do I do if the topic seems untrue?
Is it right to simply accuse someone of being a liar, and ban them as a troll, when they have broken no rules?
In the past I have tactfully questioned a poster, whose submissions seemed a bit suspicious, to try to get to the truth.
I then received messages, telling me to be careful about this, because the young man in question might have an illness.

Some members may tell me that there is a troll on the forum, while others may tell me that a pleasant new member is being bullied.
And it can happen between long-term members too, I'm afraid.

Maybe the lad you mention was simply stating the truth, as he saw it.
Maybe he will learn something from the forum.
Maybe he ~ or, rather, his opinions ~ annoyed some people. But does that make him a 'troll'?

Carl, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have always found your posts to be even handed and well written.

I do not believe in any way that the initial romance thread poster was a troll. We get these exact questions ALL the time in the RomanceClass Q&A inbox. This is a common concern of teenage males. It might be that they post less often in a public forum because they do not want to talk about these things publicly. We get hundreds of questions of this nature in the private email stream.

That forum members thought he was a troll because he talked about his sexuality concerns is distressing to me. I actively encourage our Romance readers to use the forums in order to reduce the huge flood of questions my team currently has to deal with privately. If we redirect people here, and they are then not taken seriously or abused, that concerns me greatly. No member should ever be treated with disrespect. I am grateful that you answered him sincerely.

In terms of the 4 or 5 members who asked for their accounts to be deleted, I do not believe I ever said "they wanted to "foul" other members." What I did say is that they made very direspectful posts to and about other members, and that I asked them to refrain from doing that. I do stand by that statement, and by my request. If you are saying that acting disrespectful towards a member is "fouling" them then yes, I would agree. Maybe it is simply the word choice I am confused by.

"Talking it out might well have allowed the matter to resolve" - yes I spent several solid days listening to some of these members, hearing their issues, clarifying what I wanted. I did this both privately and on the boards. Those members were the ones who made the choice to stop talking and to leave. While I wish they had not, I respect their choice about where to have an account and when to remove that account. I never would have replied to them "No, I refuse to let you leave, I will not delete your account as you have requested." I just can't see how that would be a respectful action to take.

PDM, when I first came to this board, a friend - who had been on that other board I said had been torn apart by controversy - praised this board because of the good administration and because people could talk things out.

I agree with her that this has been a good board. Better than a lot of them.

Where I have disagreed with you has been over a question of what constitutes discourtesy. I understand that the rules call for no "bad" language. But people can and do make harsh remarks.

I understand that the responsible member will moderate his tone, or refrain from posting. But often, the comments begin to heat up, and comments are made. Now, I realize that the last commenters are going against the rules, but maybe the first ones were also breaking the spirit of the rules.

But maybe there IS no spirit of the rules here. And that is what bothers me about the board, PDM & Lisa.

I don't know too much about what got discussed by the complaining members and the admin team. But I find myself wishing I could hear more of their side.

But back to me: I have not called anyone a troll. I have noticed troll behavior. And I apologize that I am "feeding" the behavior now.

I agree wholeheartedly that every person who is disrespectful should be asked to be respectful, whether they are the first poster, the second poster, the third poster, and more. Usually that is done in private, which I believe is proper.

I believe fully that the above behavior is what we have been asking for. Every person should be responsible for what they post, and every person should post respectfully. I agree completely on this issue.

That should be the purpose of the rules, and that should be the spirit of the rules as well. Every member is deserving of respectful conversation, and every member is held to the same standards of behavior.