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Re: i hit my bird [Re: LoRaXspeek4keets] #374572 07/08/09 03:01 PM
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AllieD Offline
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I also didn't want to be another person to add to this insanely off-topic thread, but, I consider myself to be in a rather unique position regarding this issue, if some of you will remember the "Holding the Beak" fiasco.

LoRaXspeek4keets, YOU ARE COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I can't believe it's finally taken this many posts before someone said what you did. This person ACTED ON INSTINCT, AS DID HIS/HER BIRD.

Note to everyone: This person wasn't asking for any kind of psychoanalysis--he/she was asking for advice about the bird.

rtegge, I know almost exactly how you feel, and I accept your regret for what happened. I understand that this post has been upsetting for you, but understand that not everyone on this forum is this unhelpful all the time. Like some have already said, it will take time for your bird to regain her trust, but it has obviously not been completely lost. She's probably feeling intimidated because you showed your dominance in, albeit, a rather violent and forceful way. Just start from square one as LoRaXspeek4keets suggested.

Please don't rashly consider giving her away, especially as a result of this thread: You obviously love her! Otherwise you wouldn't have been so honest, or have even sought out advice. Giving her away, especially so soon after this incident may prove even more emotionally damaging than the actual incident itself.

You and your baby bird will learn to love and trust each other again, in time. Take heart, and please, although it seems very uncomfortable now, please come back to the forum for advice if you need it. Not everyone here condemns you as an abusive, angry pet owner.

Best wishes to you and your keet.


Peace and Long Life.
Live Long and Prosper.
Re: i hit my bird [Re: AllieD] #374576 07/08/09 03:13 PM
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im sorry but i do not at all accept that hitting your pet or any animal is "instinct"

in fact abuse to animals is listed as criteria for a sociopath... why? because it is NOT NORMAL, it is not instinct it is NOT OK.

i refuse to sit and placate someone who has abused their pet. my reply to this person was very kind and gentle

no one in this thread was rude to the poster so maybe you all need to go back and re read some stuff ...

i sorry but if it is your first instinct to hit or physically harm or attack your pet/bird then you probally should not have birds and you do need to get some counseling to figure out why physical action and violence are your first instinct. and that goes for anyone not just the poster.

remorse is one thing, but how muhc remorse is there really when you are trying to justify what you did?

good advice was given.

god forbid someone disagree with someone ... if people hate this place them STOP COMING!!!

Re: i hit my bird [Re: ] #374582 07/08/09 03:33 PM
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Abuse to animals is only considered criteria for a sociopath if that abuse is performed deliberately with the intention of hurting the animal, and if the abuser shows no remorse or understanding of the wrongness of what he or she has done. You keep trying to apply mental diagnoses to people that don't even come close to having the symptoms. You must never swat at flies or bees. Frankly, this has just gotten ridiculous. I said what I had to say, and you can try to suggest that the poster and/or I need counseling all you want, but the bottom line is, the person made a mistake and recognized it, and they came here seeking help, not rash judgment.

Re: i hit my bird [Re: LoRaXspeek4keets] #374583 07/08/09 03:50 PM
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first of all ive nver tried to diagnose anyones mental illness and i didnt say the poster had one so you need to step back and try to make some sense here. YOU are the one coming across as angry. I know very well the criteria involved, and I do not think the poster is a sociopath, though we never know… that was not my point, my point was that it is not, in any way, a natural instinct to hit an animal. I do not care how softly or hard you hit it, it is not “human nature” I will repeat what I said: if you (meaning anyone) feel that it is in your nature that your first instinct would be to hit (resort to physical violence) when confronted with a biting bird or any situation really, then you might want to really think about that, and figure out why that is your first instinct, because it certainly is not normal. This post got ugly because of one or two people, and it was the ones supposedly standing up for the person. We were all rather kind, I was shocked at how little people seemed upset by the fact that this poor helpless defensless bird was hit by a human being. If that does not anger you then me and you can never be on the same wave length. And excuse me, but swatting at a fly or bee is not at all the same thing as physically abusing your pet bird!!! It is no where near the same thing, and do not even try to act like it is. Are you seriously trying to justify hitting a bird??? Maybe you have not had to treat bird after bird for broken bones because the owner hit it one too many times, or threw something at its cage and injured it. And for the record, no I don’t swat at bees, I get up and walk away !!!! At work we have wasps and bees all over the place and I simply walk away, no need to harm them. Flies who knows. .. im not really ever around flies. You and shamrock have made this post ridiculous. It was perfectly fine until then. Advise was given. So was admonishment and information on how to better handle the situation. I am not on this iste to kiss human beings rear ends and make humans feel better about their actions, im not your mother nor your therapist. I am here to give good solid advice and get the same in return, to better serve the animals in my care. That’s it. And in my opinion, if you hit your bird, you do not deserve to have a bird.

Re: i hit my bird [Re: ] #374584 07/08/09 03:55 PM
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AllieD Offline
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I don't think a debate, or maybe better to say an argument, is appropriate for the threads, but I cannot leave this unsaid: First of all, humans are animals. All animals have instincts; therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that humans have instincts too, yes? Whether they are instincts to protect our children, our friends, our family, or our property. What distinguishes us and sets us above animals is the ability to control our instinctive reactions. In this case, the owner did not. Although no form of violence towards any animal, or person, is acceptable in any way, this case is less "not ok" because the action wasn't done in anger. The very definition of "abuse" suggests ill will: I ask, what does a person do when an insect flies around a person's face? The person, instinctively, swats it away with his/her hand (at least, I do). The person doesn't stop to think, "Eww, a bug. This is not something I want in my face. It is gross and/or it could hurt me. I don't like this." That is the reasoning for the action, but the person doesn’t actively stop to contemplate the action. The person just acts! Is that considered violent, or abusive? (NOTE: I am not comparing a bird to an insect. I am merely showing the difference between instinct and abuse.) This incident has not come about through malice, hate, or ill will towards the pet. Secondly, I do not believe that the poster ever tried to justify what he/she did; and neither did any one who responded. We all agree that what happened was wrong. What I say is that instead of berating this person, which I think we can pretty much agree happened, we should accept his/her remorse and try to advise and assist; especially since we have never met this person and cannot judge him/her from a single, albeit severe, mistake revealed in post asking for help to correct said mistake. In fact, I think we ought to give the poster some credit, if not forgiveness, for admitting what happened was wrong and for seeking advice. This person had to have known, and did know as I recall, that people here would jump down his/her throat about it, but risked it anyway to get advise and help for his/her bird, which is what this forum is about: putting aside our differences for the comfort, health, and well-being of our animals. Thirdly, I'd like to point out that SOME good advice was given. Most of what was posted on this thread was not even advice. And no one has said that he/she hates this forum! In fact, I think, by looking at the number of responses to this post alone, it's pretty obvious that we all love it. I don’t want this to turn into another huge, long, and rather off-topic debate. I think it’s about time this thread was ended: good advice was given, and it seems to be pretty clear how we each feel. Let’s just move on. Again, I say: Let’s get back to the birds, people.


Peace and Long Life.
Live Long and Prosper.
Re: i hit my bird [Re: AllieD] #374585 07/08/09 04:05 PM
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hogwash.


so i can hit my bird so long as i am not angry while doing it ????

so if i break its bones by hitting it thats ok so long as it wasnt done in anger?

yes we all have instincts, but it is not natural for your first response to be harming something smaller and defensless, in fact it is instinct to protect it not harm it.

your theory holds no water, sorry.

you are free to believe it and you can try to justify and sugar coat this persons actions all you want ... whatever makes you feel better.
This person did something very wrong, and they should do some soul searching as to why they did it, not try to blame it on human nature.
It is good that they recognize they did something wrong and are seeking ways to change the action, and I truly hope they do use the advice given and put it into action.
Anger is not a prerequisite to abuse, never has been and never will be.

Re: i hit my bird [Re: ] #374586 07/08/09 04:06 PM
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and yes someone did say they hate the forum.

Re: i hit my bird [Re: ] #374588 07/08/09 04:20 PM
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val313 Offline
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This is something that I feel that I need admit. I have hit a bird before. I was very young. (about 12) The bird bit me very hard on the ear and I batted it away without thinking. I felt horrible that I had hit the bird. Fast forward to now. I would never hit my keets. I am older (28) and I learned from my mistakes. My keets are spoiled rotten brats who nip me all the time. I know now that birds explore their world through their beaks and only bite when defending or grumpy.
I was a child reacting on instinct (pain)and I did something incredibly stupid. I did learn from my mistakes. And I went on to work with many birds and animals at a museum.
This is all I want to say on the issue. I am not here to start a huge blow up. I feel that the person came here with honesty. Hopefully they have learned. And yes it will take the bird a long time to build trust back.
When I stepped on Basil (accident) it took him almost 3 weeks before I could touch him. He just recently is getting to where he will land on the floor without freaking out.
It will take some time. Birds do remember. They are very wonderful and intelligent creatures.



RIP Peeps
Re: i hit my bird [Re: val313] #374600 07/08/09 05:13 PM
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Thank you all who are trying to understand this poster's mistake. I did try to stop the debate earlier, but to no avail obviously. Your bird will trust you again. It will take time as anyone who is smaller and scared, but I am sure your bird knows you love her.

Though I have never hit, I do snap or clap when my birds misbehave to get their attention that it's wrong. I do the same to my children and other pets. I do dominance training and become alpha or head of the flock. Some would find this particular form wrong, but it works for all of us and I'm still very much loved and not feared.

You are not a sociopath, nor do I see those tendencies. As a person getting her Masters in Psychology, I can say that. It WAS an honest accident, not abuse. It was wrong, but the poster knows this. I do not abuse my animals or my children, but I do discipline them with voice and body language.

As Val said, when I was younger (11 or 12) my first cat saw my fingers moving on the arm of a couch and attacked them. It hurt and out of instinct I swatted her. I felt awful and apologized and cuddled her after and she never hated or feared me. I loved that cat and still to this day does not see it as abuse or sociopath behavior.

I think there was great advice given, the bird is okay. The poster is remorseful. Lets try a little harder to be respectful and caring. It is okay to be concerned for the bird, as I would be if it were a child, but it's another thing to get riled up and off track. That helps no one and makes us all look bad.

So lets try to do better next time. I know this is a loving community when it can be. Lets continue to show that to newcomers and us uh...oldcomers(i know not a word) alike! smile


Re: i hit my bird [Re: val313] #374603 07/08/09 05:21 PM
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So look at it this way, if your child does something that startles you and you accidentally hit your child, give them a bruise on their face and they go to school the next day, won't the teachers ask who did it? When the child says "mommy or daddy" won't they call child services on you? You can say it's an accident all you want to but they won't believe you.


I know that it's hard NOT to react to things. *example* When I was getting my wisdom tooth extracted the dentist warned me MANY times NOT to jump or move...As soon as he stuck those pliers in my mouth and I felt pain I jumped like a lightning bolt hit me, and lol well he got mad...But the point is that sometimes being startled can't be controlled even if you are expecting that something is going to happen *end example*

I guess what I am saying is that it may have been a mistake but think about it this way, the next time she bites you and you get startled what are you gonna do? How will you react?

I think the best thing for you to do is get a pair of training gloves so you can get her used to you again without the fear of biting and the possibility of striking your baby again...

Talk sweet to her, spend time sitting by her cage and maybe sing to her, even put your hand inside the cage and just leave it there for a bit

I hope everything turns out for the best

Last edited by KassieM; 07/08/09 05:28 PM.

Feeling inconstant would drive me insane, Flesh, to blood, to bone my love, twisted...Is It Real?
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