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Re: Health Supplements [Re: janimal] #190503 06/11/07 09:08 PM
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PDM Offline OP
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I can't say I'm that thrilled to have flouride in my tap-water, but I am informed that it is good for the teeth.
Maybe it's also furring up the arteries??
Who knows?

I'm not sure that the soil today isn't overworked as far as producing enough nutrients in the crops is concerned.

Where did you get the info on useless probiotic drinks?

Last edited by PDM; 06/11/07 09:08 PM.

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Re: Health Supplements [Re: PDM] #190533 06/11/07 10:22 PM
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victor Offline
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i've heard of people jokingly discussing adding statins to the water - but never in all seriousness. Can anybody dig up some actual facts on that? I doubt that would come to fruition, since there are rare but serious side effects.



Re: Health Supplements [Re: victor] #190572 06/11/07 11:26 PM
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PDM Offline OP
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Here's a BBC item from 2004, but I feel sure that I've heard this sort of thing being discussed quite recently on the radio:

'Statin-fortified drinking water?'
By Michelle Roberts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3931157.stm



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Re: Health Supplements [Re: PDM] #190574 06/11/07 11:28 PM
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Here's an interesting article on statins:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...in_article_id=432395&in_page_id=1774

And another:
http://www.behindthemedicalheadlines.com/articles/statin-therapy-pharmacology-current-uses-and-widening-potential;print

Last edited by PDM; 06/11/07 11:32 PM.

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Re: Health Supplements [Re: PDM] #190756 06/12/07 08:34 AM
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i was surprised myself a few years ago to see an article in the 'nature' journal cleaqrly stating thet there was no precedent of benficial effects from fluorinated water, and that there have been no provable benefits in the years since. bwhich makes you ask exactly why we are guzzeling one of the most poisonous elements in the periodic table. you know that chlorine-like taste which drinking water filters remove? thats the chlorine. one thing i do know is that in chemistry i used to treat fluorine and its derivatives with the greates respect, because its one of those poisons the body just isn't equipped to deal with. it causes all sorts of hideous bone diseases.

if you want to worry a little more the google a chemist called charles perkins, who in the 50's did a lot of research which showed the continuous trace doses of fluorine narcoticise specific regions of the brain which deal with free will, self determination and resistance to dominance. and guess who were the first to fluorinate water? the nazis. and they didn't care too much about kids teeth now, did they?

i saw probiotic drinks tested on the tv a while ago. now, these drinks are supposed to boost the levels of essential bacteria in the gut, so all they had to do was a bacterial count in stool samples.

anyway, the test involved a control section, which was given nothing, a section on probiotic drinks, a section on natural yoghurt, and a section on probiotic foods (foods which actively nourish the bacteria) like garlic, onions and bananas. now, i always figured there was little difference between probiotic drinks and natural youghurt, but was somewhat surprised to hear that youghurt actually causes a larger increase in beneficial bacteria. i was even more surprised to see that the greatest effect was to be had by eating the probiotic foods. a banana a day keeps the irritable bowels away. or an onion.
it just goes to show what utter suckers consumers are


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Re: Health Supplements [Re: janimal] #190796 06/12/07 02:39 PM
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Interesting!


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
Re: Health Supplements [Re: PDM] #190819 06/12/07 03:31 PM
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I read the articles that PDM sited. The first one I found to be prety straight forward and devoid of histrionics. It would be comparable to what you might find in a medical text.

The second article seemed a bit more alarmist to me. It is accurate in some regards, but I feel that it twists the message and comes across like we are killing women and old men taking statins, or we are being suckered by the drug companies. As I think we have discussed at one point - deciding to put people on cholesterol medication takes into account numerous factors. The threshold for starting 50 year old Joe who had a heart disease is not the same as 30 year old Jane who does not... even if they have the same cholesterol values. So I don't think anybody in medicine is surprised that young women don't see the same benefit as middle aged men. And nobody is surprised that old men who don't have heart disease don't see a benefit from statins. If your life expectancy is less than 5 years then there is no point in starting a preventive type medication. Similarly, if your risk of heart disease is low to begin with (such as a young woman), then it is hard to derive much risk reduction, since the absolute risk was low to begin with. So that is all pretty much consistent with medical teaching - but the just write about it as if this was shocking news.
Now take a 40 year old woman who smokes and has diabetes - if her cholesterol is high, she will likely be advised to start a statin, because her risk is not the same as a 40 year old woman who is not a smoker or diabetic. So you can't just make blanket recommendations, and you can't just make blanket interpretations. You need to look at subgroup analyses. Also - it is well established that the people with known heart disease derive the most benefit - simply because their risk for a recurrent cardiac event is high - thus they have the most to gain in terms of risk reduction. Also - the article does not mention degrees of cholesterol reduction. If somebody has sky high cholesterol, that is not the same as somebody who has only modest elevations in cholesterol. You have to take that into account - so a woman who is 40 with no other risk factors, but has LDL cholesterol >200, will likely be advised statin therapy too - because you can't just make a generalization about women - when there are wide variations in cholesterol levels. It's not rocket science, but it does take some knowledge about risk factors and risk reduction.

All that being said, there are probably doctors who don't think through the risk factors and just treat willy nilly, and there are some who might subconsciously be affected by drug marketing and drug reps. That is why I whole heartedly agree with becoming knowledgeable and asking your doctor good questions about your personal situation. We are like snow flakes, afterall - no two the same.


Re: Health Supplements [Re: janimal] #190850 06/12/07 06:09 PM
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Hey - glad to see my dear friend Victor playing the 'doctor in house' in my absence - at least someone, I can rely upon grin grin grin grin grin

Good find victor (the article from NEJM)

See the point they have highlighted is cleverly declining 'deaths' not declining incidence of coronary heart disease. I can put my money on the fact that if investigated, incidence might be on the rise.

So what has changed ? The outcome.

(I can speak for UK only) 20 yrs ago if you had a heart attack, there was not a lot of treatment. You just give supporting treatment and wait for body to mend itself. The only 'treatment' was that of heparin infusion, to keep the blood liquid, hoping that the clot in the coronary artery will dissolve.
Then came 'clot busters' - initially urokinase, then streptokinase, then tPA and now even newer ones.
Next - we started giving this treatment as soon as possible, even in the Accident & Emergency dept. Then in the ambulances.
Even more - now we have moved to primary angioplasty (- yes like US & France, where they have it for many years) - even in DGHs, if you come with a heart attack, we can offer primary angiography and angioplasty.

Result ? Fewer deaths from coronary heart disease.

That's how it is achieved.



A similar effort is in process in Cerebro Vascular Disease . . see what come of this effort in 20 yrs time.


Hence, friends, the true picture can only come out, when we look at the actual 'incidences' of CHD . . . whether that has fallen or not interests me more.


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Re: Health Supplements [Re: somsuj] #190851 06/12/07 06:13 PM
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I shall be back to comment on other isues raised in this thread - but here is one point . . .

It is not established yet - whether the relationship between low statin and low incidence of coronary heart and cerebrao-vascular disease is causal or not.
There is a positive association no doubt.
What we do not know yet - is this - does low cholesterol cause all this good work - or is it something else ?

I am all for statin, but would like to know more . . .


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Re: Health Supplements [Re: somsuj] #190852 06/12/07 06:15 PM
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Welcome back Somsuj and yes you are correct - incidence of heart disease is a whole other ball game - not to mention the incidence of subclinical atheromatous plaque - which may be present but not be clinically manifest.

Nonetheless - the thing most people usually care about the most is death - plus it is easy to comprehend its importance.

If I read medical journals half as much as I read this forum, I would be brilliant :-)

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