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#398309 - 04/02/10 11:46 AM
Why do I believe in God?
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Regular
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 99
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
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Why do I believe in God?
Hello everyone,
I read the thread authored by Niki, entitled “Beginning of change”. That was an interesting thread, I enjoyed reading it. I noticed most of the participants to that thread were either agnostics or new converter to atheists. I took upon myself to challenge and disagree with the non-believers and the doubters! Now, in the spirit of that threat, I like to portray my evolution, from practicing Islam, to being a non-believer, and back to being a believer! However, I am not following any established religions. In my view they are clearly primitive and simply wrong, but not without some inherent merits.
I practiced Islam up to age 23, then, I abandoned Islam for its deficiencies and its falsehoods, then, for many years I did not bother with any religion at all, though I was interested in the history and the evolutions of all belief systems. Then, around age 50 I had some free time to ponder more about the subject. That was about 13 years ago! Now I believe in God!
Many factors contributed to this final step in the evolution of my thoughts. One aspect of my new belief was drawn from pure reasoning. One version of plausible reasoning goes as follows. Nobody disputes that we have acquired our intelligence and our consciousness from the complex fabric of this Universe. So, this Universe possesses the capability to produce sophisticated intelligence with consciousness. It does not matter if such capability was there at the inception of the Universe at the big bang, or it was interjected to it during its long evolutionary process. Now that this Universe has given rise to intelligent Human beings with consciousness then this Universe itself must possess the intelligence and the consciousness. This is like the relationship between a programmer and the computer software that he/she writes. The software acquires its intelligence from the programmer. In other word the programmer has to have the intelligence in order to be able to convey such intelligence to the software. It is true that in many processes our computers has left us in their dust, but no matter how powerful they can get still they have drawn their intelligence and their capabilities from us! And it is quite possible some day HAL from 2001 Space Odyssey becomes a reality. In that case we still will be at the foundation of its birth. Another example of this process is in the relationship that exists between a coach and his/her players. So, we can conclude that this Universe has to possess the intelligence and the consciousness in order to produce intelligent human beings with such awareness.
This thought puts this Universe out of the realm of a mindless structure which behaves randomly and without any intrinsic intelligence. Such Intelligence as far as we know it requires a blueprint and an intelligent designer who has produced the structure.
We confidently judge that all the artifacts, including the ones that we find in all the archeological sites, they are all the products of some intelligent human beings. I wonder how we can deny the same conclusion about the structure of this extremely sophisticated Universe!? Such an elegant enterprise with such sophisticated conscious has to be the product of an intelligent supreme designer! If you still are not convinced of the validity of this logic, then let me ask you the following question; how do you define that a system has intelligence? Isn’t it enough if that system on its own performs some intelligent processes? And by raising Human Beings this is exactly what this Universe as a system has done, and we all can readily agree with it unanimously.
The other factor which guided me toward believing in God came from pondering about the path of my personal life. Through that examination I thought about some of the events and circumstances which they had directed my life toward a certain path, which they were totally beyond my control. I realized those events were not that random! And it seemed an invisible force mysteriously had been influencing the structure of my life! Was I imagining those things!? Maybe! But, those circumstances convinced me personally about the existence of an invisible force which profoundly was influencing my environment and my life! Those events were so personal that they only could make sense to me individually, and by no means they could be considered as an evidence for anybody else! However, if someone else would have had similar personal experiences then they would understand the dynamic of those moments that I am pointing to. Here it is important to mention that, even though I experienced those events personally, at no time I was certain that my analyses of those experiences were one hundred percent correct! There were always some lingering doubts that I needed to re-examine my findings again and again. And most of those vivid experiences do fade away from my memory as time goes by, unless I had made an effort writing them done. Quite often I need to remind myself of the gravity of those special moments in order to comfort myself that I was not hallucinating! The scarcity of those special events made me to realize; since I was affectionately interested understanding the Truth, then occasionally the Force had blessed me with those special rare events to get a sense of the underlying Truth! And there, they were, those special rare moments to grasp some glimpse of the Reality that I was so interested to understand it! I realized those rare enlightening moments they were with me all the time, and they were not that rare at all, but I needed a blessing in order to recognize their existence and their dynamics! Otherwise, I would be too mute or too pre-occupied to recognize them! Certainly I needed some solace moments to digest the gravity of those enlightened events. I concluded that those enlightened events are routine for everybody, but we only need a blessing to recognize their existence!
Of course, I assume the conclusion which I drew based on those experiences was the products of my own thoughts. And I do acknowledge the possibilities that I might have drawn wrong conclusion! We only can use our rational to judge about something, and many factors could fool us and lead us to some wrong conclusions! For the past ten or fifteen years off and on I have been pondering about the validity of the invisible God. Now, I positively believe in God. One might charge that I have become delusional! And that still might be a possibility! But, I can defend my position with a sound logic! [color:#000099]Niki prayed: “If God be real, my only prayer is for him to understand that I cannot believe in what I cannot substantiate!” I say “Amen” to that pray. This desire has to be at the heart of any constructive thoughts. Especially in the domain of the belief systems which they are dominating our daily lives. Otherwise, we would be impeaching ourselves without any excuse! Unfortunately, a lot of times many of us do that without any shame!
The essence of any valid theory is in its assumptions, in its reasoning, and above all in its consistency with our experiments. We have labeled such theories as scientific. Of course we do not get unanimous consent to the validity of many theories, and that is natural. Based on this background we have to accept that the natural science has proved the falsehood of the Genesis Story with many powerful evidences. And this new found knowledge reveals the nature of the Holy Books! The Holy Books were not dictated to the Human beings by God! They are the enlightened inspirations which Man has acquired throughout the ages about God, about life, and about the purpose of our lives. As our knowledge has grown those Holy Books need to be updated and that is an obvious conclusion. And everybody knows such a change and admission would be the end of those primitive and confused theologies. And that progress would eliminate the existing established religions and those elevated powerful positions! We do know the authorities who are controlling these religions are extremely powerful. So, obviously they are not in any rush to relinquish their powerful position voluntarily! And that should be expected too! Because throughout the history, only very few exceptional souls departed from their power voluntarily. Buddha was one of them. President George Washington was another one.
There is lots of profound wisdom in the Holy Books about the nature of Man and his relation with Mighty God. I think Holy Books are among of many theories that Man has devised to explain the function and the nature of God and they define a purpose of our lives. It would be very short sighted if we disregard many of the valuable contributions that these religions have provided for the Human growth. There are some profound lessons even in their rigid and brutal practices. Our modern enlightened aspirations for Humanity have been realized directly from the contributions of those rigid, intimidating, harsh, brutal, and even the most savage practices of those religions! One only needs to evaluate the effect of those primitive and harsh practices with their actual outcomes. These outcomes have clearly demonstrated how we were forced to unleash the power of our brain! Please, do not resort to any hypothetical theory in order to discredit this conclusion! The evidence for this conclusion is virtually portrayed in the overall outcome of the people who crudely struggled with those religions. An example for this process would be our old perceptions about wolfs. We used to consider wolfs as a menace and a killer, and we used to desire to eliminate them completely, but we have learnt about wolfs’ contribution for a healthy wild life environment, and now we appreciate their presence and their contributions. The same it goes for Snakes.
Isn’t it interesting in Genesis Story, Snakes are identified as an agent for the devil!? This shows the writers of those religious stories how naïve they were! But through those very primitive stories something much bigger has been achieved! Our modern science has taught us to examine any issue holistically, so we need to do the same for the impact of believing in God in Humans’ societies and in Humans’ psyche. The concept of God has impacted us in many levels. Some might points to the rewarding aspects of it, and some in destructive aspect of it, but the truth of the matter lies in the net outcome that our achievements present.
Naturally as our knowledge grows we have to update our spiritual theories. Our modern science has shown us how fruitful this process is. After all, our science is in total harmony with the best gift that God has awarded us; our logical brain! Of course, this is the path if we are only interested in the Truth. And we all know our individual interests are very complex thing too, and on top of that it keeps evolving all the time!
May God Bless us All,
Unes[/color]
Edited by Unes (04/02/10 02:57 PM)
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#398321 - 04/02/10 04:57 PM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: Unes]
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21847
Loc: UK Midlands
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... I like to portray my evolution, from practicing Islam, to being a non-believer, and back to being a believer! ..... That sounds very interesting  One aspect of my new belief was drawn from pure reasoning. .... Nobody disputes that we have acquired our intelligence and our consciousness from the complex fabric of this Universe. So, this Universe possesses the capability to produce sophisticated intelligence with consciousness. ..... Now that this Universe has given rise to intelligent Human beings with consciousness then this Universe itself must possess the intelligence and the consciousness. This is like the relationship between a programmer and the computer software that he/she writes. ... ...... So, we can conclude that this Universe has to possess the intelligence and the consciousness in order to produce intelligent human beings with such awareness. I can see what you mean and I agree that this sounds logical, but I don't think that, because man is intelligent, and the universe behaves in an intelligent manner, that this, necessarily, means that there is some kind of intelligent brain behind it ~ only that this apparent intelligence has evolved because it is the only way that it could evolve, if it were to survive. We confidently judge that all the artifacts, including the ones that we find in all the archeological sites, they are all the products of some intelligent human beings. I wonder how we can deny the same conclusion about the structure of this extremely sophisticated Universe!? The artefacts that are obviously man-made are treated this way, but, sometimes, we may think that a natural object may be man-made. Some such things can just evolve naturally. The other factor which guided me toward believing in God came from pondering about the path of my personal life. Through that examination I thought about some of the events and circumstances which they had directed my life toward a certain path, which they were totally beyond my control. I realized those events were not that random! And it seemed an invisible force mysteriously had been influencing the structure of my life! As I have said before, 'strange' things have happened in my life and the lives of family and friends. I cannot explain them. Maybe we are, indeed, in the realms of the paranormal here, or maybe we just don't understand 'yet'. Of course, I assume the conclusion which I drew based on those experiences was the products of my own thoughts. And I do acknowledge the possibilities that I might have drawn wrong conclusion! We only can use our rational to judge about something, and many factors could fool us and lead us to some wrong conclusions![/quore]
Absolutely. Exactly.
[quote]The Holy Books were not dictated to the Human beings by God! They are the enlightened inspirations which Man has acquired throughout the ages about God, about life, and about the purpose of our lives. .... I think Holy Books are among of many theories that Man has devised to explain the function and the nature of God and they define a purpose of our lives. I think that they are man's attempt to explain what is often inexplicable. I can see the logic of assumimg that the intelligence of the universe must come from 'an intelligence', and that we could name this intelligence 'God', but I think that it would need to be abstract idea, and not 'a being' who is interacting with humans. Yes, as you say, humans do, indeed, have experiences, which indicate that maybe a paranormal being is, actually interacting with us. But is this what is actually happening? And, if it is, does this being have to be 'God'? If God is the intelligence behind the universe, and within us, why is there so much violence in the universe? I don't know. I know some of the questions, but not the answers. That is why I call myself 'agnostic'. It is possible that something exists, which might be termed 'God'. It might even be reasonable to give the name 'God' to the power / intelligence behind the universe ~ like 'Mother Nature'. It is possible that our own subconscious minds are responsible for many things that we do not understand ~ or perhaps we simply have not arrived at the stage where we can understand these mysteries ~ just as early man did not understand thunderstorms. The 'paranormal' may one day be explained, and become 'normal'. It is a fascinating subject.
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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#398326 - 04/02/10 09:09 PM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: somsuj]
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Best Friend
Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1665
Loc: New York
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I'm so glad my topic has persuaded people to post their own topics and share their own stories! I've enjoyed reading this Unes, thanks so much for sharing! I feel odd replying and arguing with you, however. You left religion at an older age than I did, and came back with much life experience. Double my lifespan. I feel, in a sense, arrogant to critique in the least bit what you have to say. If we were in any other place, I would not say a word. However, this is a forum! Just please take whatever I have to write the way I mean it, with the deepest humility. Now that this Universe has given rise to intelligent Human beings with consciousness then this Universe itself must possess the intelligence and the consciousness. Why? How do you draw this conclusion? I understand your allegorical connection, but it's not logical. This argument, also, isn't new. It's William Paley's Watchmaker argument. It's fallacious for many reasons. The most obvious is comparing the known, to the unknown. It can be written up as an equation. man X --- -- a watch Y X is God, or the intelligent designer (universe, Force, whatever). Y is what God or the intelligent designer has created. God is indescribable, with no rational definition to deal with. God can not be sensed by the senses, nor detected other than what most people define as some sixth sense. We neither have nothing we can difinatively say is created by this unknown, undetected God. We can pick up a watch and see that Bob Jone's name is written on the bottom. We can not pick up a rock, or look at a person, and see God's insignia. It's a fallacious equation which can not be proven without speculation. The other factor which guided me toward believing in God came from pondering about the path of my personal life. Great! Personal experiences are great. I never speak against them. Isn’t it interesting in Genesis Story, Snakes are identified as an agent for the devil! Actually, in the Genesis story itself, the snake is not. Where do you find this? You find this because you have been taught, via tradition, how to read those pasages. It says nothing about the devil in Genesis. Again, thanks for sharing. It's always nice to read why people believe. Even though I may not agree with them.
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#398331 - 04/03/10 04:42 AM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: Niki]
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Regular
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 99
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
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Yes, as you say, humans do, indeed, have experiences, which indicate that maybe a paranormal being is, actually interacting with us. But is this what is actually happening? And, if it is, does this being have to be 'God'?
I think the concept of God came into existence just because of our inquisitive and intelligent mind. That image evolved as our intelligence progressed. It makes no sense trying to change the concept, or changing the name, it still covers the same needs.
If God is the intelligence behind the universe, and within us, why is there so much violence in the universe?
I think in my post I covered the violence issue. I indicated since the result of those harsh experiences were this refined and intelligent people, so those conditions must have played a positive role in our upbringing. And maybe those harsh conditions were essential for our development. Only some in-depth and exhaustive research could validate or nullify this thought. But until then I need to judge the issue by the result which it has produced.
It is possible that our own subconscious minds are responsible for many things that we do not understand ~ or perhaps we simply have not arrived at the stage where we can understand these mysteries ~ just as early man did not understand thunderstorms. The 'paranormal' may one day be explained, and become 'normal'.
I can see what you mean and I agree that this sounds logical, but I don't think that, because man is intelligent, and the universe behaves in an intelligent manner, that this, necessarily, means that there is some kind of intelligent brain behind it ~ only that this apparent intelligence has evolved because it is the only way that it could evolve, if it were to survive.
- - - -
The artifacts that are obviously man-made are treated this way, but, sometimes, we may think that a natural object may be man-made. Some such things can just evolve naturally.
Now that this Universe has given rise to intelligent Human beings with consciousness then this Universe itself must possess the intelligence and the consciousness.
Why? How do you draw this conclusion? I understand your allegorical connection, but it's not logical.
In my rational I see for any man-made objects there are some intelligent human beings behind them. Now should I exclude the Nature from this observation just because I did not see its Creator!? Why? Comparison is one of the basic tools that it is very essential in our logic. I am free to use Comparison until I reach to an impasse. I do acknowledge certain knowledge at this time is beyond our capacity. But lack of that capacity should not be the reason to stop us from using our useful tool in forming our theory about the Creator. Do we reject the Dark Matter just because we can not detect it? We accept the Dark Matter because it solves some of our observational puzzles. I see no difference between accepting the existence of God and accepting the existence of the Dark Matter. Both of these concepts solve many of our observational puzzles.
This argument, also, isn't new. It's William Paley's Watchmaker argument. It's fallacious for many reasons. The most obvious is comparing the known, to the unknown.
. . . . .
We neither have nothing we can difinatively say is created by this unknown, undetected God. We can pick up a watch and see that Bob Jone's name is written on the bottom. We can not pick up a rock, or look at a person, and see God's insignia.
Niki you see the signature on the clocks and then you expect that God is supposed to put his signature on rocks too? Do you think God needs to comply with our demand in order that we acknowledge him!? Don’t you think that is presumptuous of us to have this kind of attitude!? I would ask; are we intelligent enough to recognize God’s signature? We recently just figured out the dimension of this Universe, do you think that is enough for us to claim that we know everything about this Universe, and God’s signature is not found!? Those kinds of remarks point to an extremely confident and arrogant person, and that is the signature of a very energetic youth. I need to remind you the most knowledgeable scientists always express their utmost humility and gratitude for the fascinating beauty and the complexity of the Nature, and their acknowledgement of their limited knowledge about the Nature. The beautiful complex harmony which exists in this Universe is one of God’s signatures for us to recognize it, if we pay any attention! However, I have to disappoint you if God’s signature is very different from that of the clock makers! God’s signature is presented in the complex structure of the Nature, and this sophisticated orderly structure can not be the product of some chaotic motions by some mindless particles. There is some kind of over-reaching intelligent properties within the structures of those mindless particles, which makes their apparently chaotic motions to produce this beautiful and fascinating outcome.
May God Bless us All,
Unes
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#398334 - 04/03/10 09:32 AM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: Unes]
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21847
Loc: UK Midlands
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I think that an evolving universe follows the pattern of 'survival of the most fitting'. Thus, whatever we have, now, exists because it can exist. It seems to fit perfectly because it does. Anything that didn't fit, couldn't exist. I don't see a need for God to enter this equation. That does not mean that there is no God, but, if there is, he/she/it would be far beyond our comprehension and may or may not have initiated this universe. (Who initiated 'God', I wonder.) What do we mean by 'God'? ~ The 'abstract' energy behind the big bang? ~ A human-like supernatural being, who interacts and grants prayers? ~ Both? "There is some kind of over-reaching intelligent properties within the structures of those mindless particles, which makes their apparently chaotic motions to produce this beautiful and fascinating outcome." That is very poetic, and possible ~ but not, necessarily, true. "I think the concept of God came into existence just because of our inquisitive and intelligent mind. That image evolved as our intelligence progressed. It makes no sense trying to change the concept, or changing the name, it still covers the same needs. " Exactly. The concept may only exist because we need it to exist. I think that there may or may not be / have been a creative energy that we can term 'God. Certainly there must be / have been some creative energy ~ but is it good or logical to term this energy 'God', in view of the the pre-conceptions that go with this word? I know that the paranormal seems to exist. What is actually going on here I do not know, but people see ghosts, hear voices, interact with the dead, see angels, saints, aliens, etc, etc, etc. It seems logical that some such encounters are considered to be encounters with God. If people hear voices, or if things go right, then God is answering their prayers, etc, etc. Of course, they could actually be interacting with their own subconscious minds; or telepathically communicating with the subconscious minds of other people; or with the energy that is the soul of a deceased loved-one. I do not know. Put together the amazing world in which we live, the mysteries of that world, and the fact that people seem to have paranormal experiences, and you have the explanation for God, Heaven, angels, saints, etc, etc, etc. But we don't really know what the answers to all the mysteries may turn out to be. We can say that the great mystery is 'God' ~ but how meaningful is this, really?
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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#398340 - 04/03/10 02:32 PM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: mbas400]
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Regular
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 99
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
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Isn’t it interesting in Genesis Story, Snakes are identified as an agent for the devil!
Actually, in the Genesis story itself, the snake is not. Where do you find this? You find this because you have been taught, via tradition, how to read those pasages. It says nothing about the devil in Genesis.
But we don't really know what the answers to all the mysteries may turn out to be. We can say that the great mystery is 'God' ~ but how meaningful is this, really?
"There is some kind of over-reaching intelligent properties within the structures of those mindless particles, which makes their apparently chaotic motions to produce this beautiful and fascinating outcome."
That is very poetic, and possible ~ but not, necessarily, true.
By the way, I struggle to write proper prose, thank you for complementing my writing as poetry, I really appreciate that!!!
May God Bless us All,
Unes
Edited by Unes (04/03/10 03:13 PM)
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#398364 - 04/03/10 08:21 PM
Re: Why do I believe in God?
[Re: Unes]
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True Blue Soulmate
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 21847
Loc: UK Midlands
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But we don't really know what the answers to all the mysteries may turn out to be. We can say that the great mystery is 'God' ~ but how meaningful is this, really?
I hope that you are not serious by this statement! Yes, I am serious. I think that it is a reasonable and logical comment. The element of God, or various visions of Gods, is dominated our societies. Oh yes, you have the luxury to think abstract and imagine the serenity of a society without God, but how did that experiment worked out in commonest countries!? It seems the burdens of believing God overwhelms our judgments and we fail to see the essential psychological needs which such beliefs cover. I am sorry, Unes, I know you said that you have difficulty, sometimes, with English, and I had some difficulty understanding this paragraph properly, so I don't feel able to respond. The various stimulations is at the heart of our mental progress, so we hardly can dismiss God's vast contributing value in that process. Yes, our brain is stimulated by its surroundings, but that does not mean that God is actively affecting us. If a process produces some intelligent result then we have to conclude that process itself is intelligent. We do not expect a dumb system to produce intelligent product. I don't think that we are comparing like with like here. The universe is not a computer. A computer is man-made and, though it has evolved, it has required intelligent people to help it on its way ~ every step of the way. The origins of the universe are still something of a mystery ~ and that 'mystery' has been called 'God', but, as I indicated, quite seriously, this may not be a meaningful thing to do. The universe appears to be intelligent because it is so 'suitable', but, as I said, this is 'survival of the most fitting'. Everything that didn't 'fit', didn't last. We are left with perfection ~ well, almost By the way ... thank you for complementing my writing as poetry, I really appreciate that!!! That's ok ~ I thought that it sounded very poetic
_________________________
"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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